Sir, the conversation about what comes next, I thought it would be the Chief Minister had the option of perhaps changing his mind at any stage if a particular election ...

The Deputy Bailiff:

Thank you for pointing that. Of course that is true. Deputy Bryans.

1.1 Deputy R.G. Bryans of St. Helier:

I received an email this morning from Kevin Keen, somebody I richly admire. I was hoping to see him in this Assembly. He was wishing me well but he had one little phrase that stuck in my mind - it was a very short email, as most of his emails are: “Kids only get one chance after all.” I would like to set out my vision. In the next 3½ years there are things I want to achieve: a reinvigorated, inspired and inspiring teaching profession, an education service that is highly regarded across the Island and has renewed confidence and, crucially, standards on the move upward for everyone. I want to restore confidence and belief that a high performing education system is the route to a fair society. For the last 3 years as an Assistant Minister I served an apprenticeship that has given me a sharp insight into the important work that needs to be done to take our education system to the next level. During that time I worked hard and have gained the confidence and respect of the unions and the teaching community. I have built on my previous experience working on a primary school P.T.A. (Parent-Teacher Association), as a volunteer at Brighter Futures, as the chair of governors at Haute Vallée and as a teacher at Grainville. All these things, as has been previously said by other prospective candidates, will allow me to hit the ground running. I understand education. It is my passion; it is in my DNA. In England, education has been under enormous pressure to change and to respond quickly. Under Michael Gove, love him or hate him, those changes began. It has been a turbulent, painful time for many schools but he put high standards right back at the top of the education agenda. Locally, some feel Education has suffered from a lack of leadership, a lack of direction and a lack of political support. It is time to change all that. The Chief Minister has already stated that Education must now be a major priority. I doubt there is anyone in this Chamber who disagrees. Education has been out in the cold for far too long. Now we have an opportunity to address those concerns and I hope winter is over. The darkness is receding and the light can flood in. Every year 1,000 babies are born. That means 2,000 anxious parents hoping their children will get a strong education and good life chances as a result. Behind them, 7,000 businesses in Jersey are ready, also hoping our education service can deliver students with the right skills who can develop a career and innovate. Later, when those people have got a change of heart or retire, they may want to reinvent themselves or retrain. At every point, education is there to step in and support them. This is a unique moment where all the planets are aligned and real improvements are possible. A new Minister, a new director, a new head of Highlands, 3 new secondary heads and 4 new primary heads creates a strong team across education. They can make a significant difference. We need to reach out to teachers. We need to support and inspire them so they inspire the children in their care. I know this is possible and have seen skills being passed from secondary teachers to primary teachers and on to children as young as 4. Teachers have suffered enough pressure from changes imposed from the U.K. (United Kingdom) and the uninformed criticism here. Now is time for negative attitudes to thaw so that we can enter into calmer waters. From the outset the director and I agreed on 4 major priorities. Firstly, standards. We are already seeing change. With the help of our professional partners, G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) results are improving, primary school results are improving, but more work needs to be done. I intend to finish the job. If teachers are to inspire students and reach the full level of their potential they must have the same expectations in their own careers. Great teachers should be recognised and rewarded, their good practices shared. Secondly, a Jersey curriculum, not Michael Gove’s, not Finland’s but a Jersey education for Jersey students, one that includes the French language, our local history and a greater understanding of our political system, one that is more closely defined by the needs of our community and aligned to our jobs market. Thirdly, autonomy: giving schools the opportunity to free-up their creativity, encourage new thinking and, where it is successful, share it with other schools. They will be able to make decisions consistent with the needs of their schools and their particular pupils. Just as every child is different, so is every school. We have remarkable teachers. They should be given the freedom to astound us. Lastly, working more closely with families. For many of the more vulnerable members of our society, because their own problems seem so overwhelming, education is given a low priority. We need to reach out, give help where it is needed to people who might never ask for it, and make sure that no child is left behind. Every child must be given the greatest opportunity and the best education we can offer. I am not going to be able to say everything I want to do in this short space of time, but I have a long list of considerations. Some of the others are we need to engage all parents in their child’s education, not just at school but from the vital early years that can set the templates for life. Parents need to have a clear understanding of how they can help their child and be part of the partnership that successful education is. To help with that we have recently appointed a new head of Early Years. To continue the work we set out in the Digital Vision document, preparing teachers and students for the changes both in teaching practice and job skills, providing access to a wider range of qualifications, we will continue the success of the apprenticeships and the Trackers programme, particularly in the digital sector. The Youth Service will, in its new home at St. James’ and its projects across the Island, continue offering sanctuary, a respite, an alternative for the youth that seeks a safe place and our support but also some of the best opportunities to develop their creativity and let it flourish. I can assure people that although culture and sport will move to E.D.D. (Economic Development Department), they are so intrinsically woven into the fabric of our teaching the links will not severed. I will continue helping create a Youth Parliament. This is key in providing a better political education, allowing their voices to be held and holding us to greater scrutiny. Equally, it should encourage a new generation of politicians. I want to support the aims outlined in the Skills Strategy, inviting closer relationships with the private sector, encouraging engagement on all fronts. The new head at Highlands has spoken about the possibility for Jersey to have its own diploma, to create a new post-16 curriculum. He wants to take our vocational courses to a world-class level and open our courses to foreign students. A new head, with new ideas, thinking differently. One of my first acts if elected will be to bring everyone associated with Education into one room to outline what is our shared vision, our strategy, our expectations and aspirations. It will take positive energy, empathy, a sense of humour, creative thinking and clear communications to achieve the goals we have set out. I believe I embody those attributes and will, along with the Government’s support, set the tone to lead the department into a new era. I will be visible, accessible and approachable. In my view, a good education should foster the development of good society and support every aspect of an individual’s life. In short, from cradle-to-grave lifelong learning. It should enable learners to discover the life they want to live and help them acquire the skills to do so.

[9:45]

To achieve this we need a reinvigorated workforce, a confident service and rising standards. That is what I aim to deliver as Minister for Education. So, to close and for those who will recognise the cultural reference, for Education spring is coming. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Deputy Bailiff:

We now have 20 minutes of questions. Are there any questions?

1.1.1 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:

Deputy Bryans spoke about skills being passed from secondary teachers to primary teachers and this rang alarm bells a little bit. Some of the problems, I think, that the education system has faced have come from this top-down approach and children grow up not down. I would just like to ask the candidate what he will do to renew the importance of early years and ensure that we get it right from the beginning for our children?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

The reference in particular was to what we have designed within the Digital Vision. One of the things we recognised, as I said earlier, is we have absolutely remarkable individuals in the teaching profession and one of those individuals is at Hautlieu who is responsible for the I.T. (information technology) Department. What we saw in that particular teacher was somebody who fully understood what it was necessary to do to take I.T. to another level. In the construction of the Digital Vision, as was recommended by Scrutiny, we began to develop pockets of learning and got them to share these with the people who were somewhat behind the curve. So that is what I am referring to. That was the sort of thing that I witnessed through a couple of events that we put together with regard to I.T. and it has been extremely successful. For the first time really we have seen a lot of sharing between departments. The evidence of that was there was a professor who came over from the U.K. who put together an I.T. event and about halfway through the event I happened to say to him: “What have you found?” and he said again it was quite remarkable. He had never seen such a collegiate atmosphere and he was interested by the very fact that when he opened up the doors we had primary school kids, we had secondary school kids and we had students from Highlands. They had run around informing each other about what they were doing. There was no consideration; it was about stages and not ages. So that is really what I was referring to at that point in time.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Deputy, we have 10 Members wishing to ask you questions, so if you could be brief, please.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Sorry. Well, I think that answers that to some degree.

1.1.2 Deputy M.R. Higgins of St. Helier:

I have had a number of people come to me with educational matters and I would like to hear the candidate’s view on them. One concerns a young lady who has been studying, has a degree and has done various other things to do with the medical profession and wishes to train as a doctor but she cannot get a grant for the final part of her training, which I think is altogether about 7 years in all, and she cannot get a grant from the department in the end. When we are crying out for local doctors and so on, is the department prepared to finance this type of thing? At the moment she is being told that she cannot get assistance. Equally, I have had other people come to me who are in employment and realised that there are redundancies in their own firms and are looking for retraining but they cannot get a grant or the Income Tax Department will not give concessions. What would you do to help these people to retrain, because training is the key to our future?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I absolutely agree that training is the key to our future. One of the roles that I played as Assistant Minister was that I oversaw all the appeals. We have got a fantastic appeals situation in Education. I oversaw all the appeals about changing between schools and moving for those who wanted to enter Hautlieu. I dealt with about 270 families at that time and it taught me a great deal. It brought me very close to the heart of what was going on in Education. What I would suggest to the Deputy in all those situations is doors are open. We are listening, there is a new breath of change, a new atmosphere of proactivity, and if anybody feels that they are not receiving the due regard to receiving grants and whatever, we will do everything that we can to make sure that that carries on.

1.1.3 Deputy R. Labey of St. Helier:

What is the candidate’s view on the current system of internal self-assessment at schools where teachers are placed in the invidious position of assessing their colleagues? Will he push for industry standard external assessment?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Thank you very much for that comment, Deputy. We have a set of professional partners. It was brought in under the last director. It has had a profound effect. They are generally ex-Ofsted inspectors. They act independently of the school. They go in there and they see where the pinch-points are. They ask the schools to provide them with the kind of information you have just mentioned, to look at themselves internally, to make sure that they are up to standards, and then they place that against what they perceive themselves. Then the discussions begin to happen with regard to what they can do to improve that situation. So we do have things in place, the professional partners are there and they are working.

Deputy R. Labey:

Can I have a supplementary, Sir?

The Deputy Bailiff:

There are so many Members I am going to let supplementaries come in all at the end.

1.1.4 Connétable J. Gallichan of St. Mary:

Two things in the candidate’s opening speech resonated particularly with me, one concerning, of course, the French tuition and, secondly, the seeming move away from the slavish adherence to the U.K. curriculum. Can the candidate explain to me whether he will be looking at the way our European counterparts deal with the teaching of modern foreign languages in an attempt to try to give our youngsters the same advantages that the multilingual Europeans have?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Thank you for that question. I was delighted that at the request of the ex-Senator Jean Le Maistre with regard to Jèrriais - I know that is not the French language but it is indigenous to the Island - we went across and visited the Isle of Man, because they have taken on immersion schools, they have taken on a whole new notion of bilingual schooling. It was an eye-opener to me and I went to visit a small immersion school. If anybody gets the opportunity to do so in the Isle of Man it is a fantastic place, but the Manx language is completely different to Jèrriais. It is almost like you had walked into the set of Lord of the Rings or something. It is like hobbits all over the place. What was interesting though, they showed us around the schools, they showed us the immersion schools, they showed us the teaching, and then just as it happened, when we were sitting in a common room, a young girl came in, a young teacher, and I said: “What is the role that you play?” She said: “I work both in the immersion school and in the secondary school, so I have a foot in both camps.” I said: “Which one works more effectively?” She said: “Neither really. In the immersion school, what the kids end up with is a really good ability to speak the language but not such good academic results whereas in the secondary school where they do the bilingual, the academic results are very good but the actual language is not spoken so well.” So it was at variance. I think it is important, and the Deputy and I have spoken about this, that we do pay due regard to modern languages, that we do look at where they are necessary to take ourselves forward with regard to not just education but for the job prospects in the future. So it is very much on my agenda.

1.1.5 Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville:

Some years ago when I was Assistant Minister for Education, Sport and Culture we set up the citizenship programme in schools. So many years on from that, I find it is not taught in some schools, mainly because the trainers are not educated enough in our political system and our culture. What would the Deputy do to address this?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think there are 2 things, one as I said in my speech, and I know the director is very focused on this. He was quite astounded to go round the schools himself, as he comes from the U.K., and to see not enough local history and not enough citizenship was being complied to. So that is very much something we will be looking at in the future. But I will also say… I said in my speech about the Youth Parliament. I think it is exemplary that our students have come to us. I was struggling with the notion and working with the Greffe and various departments to try to put the Youth Parliament together and then a letter was received by the Chief Minister who passed it on to me. I contacted the young girl at J.C.G. (Jersey College for Girls) and she has now become very much part of the political fabric of our lives. She is intending to create a Youth Parliament before Christmas, the notion of which would be that each Parish will have 3 youth candidates representing that Parish and they will construct the parliament from the ground up. I think that is an important factor.

1.1.6 Senator L.J. Farnham:

I was going to ask almost the identical question to the one Deputy Labey asked. I think the teaching of life skills and good citizenship ...

The Deputy of Grouville:

The Deputy of Grouville, Sir.

Senator L.J. Farnham:

It is the Deputy of Grouville. I am sorry. Life skills and good citizenship are essential, as is the teaching of our own heritage and history, but we hear time and time again, especially around election time, the lack of understanding of our own political system. Students and pupils tend to know more about how the English Parliament, the English political system works. Would he advocate the teaching of our own political systems to our children in schools?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Yes, you have my commitment.

1.1.7 Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier:

The candidate has said that the unions have confidence in him. He must have done some talking behind the scenes then because 2 of the unions feel very isolated because the Chief Minister had negotiated with one of the teaching unions, thereby apparently splitting the approach to the unions. What measures will he take to reassure the unions that they are part of his future as Minister? In particular, he picked out Finland and said: “Not Finland.” Why would he reject anything that is happening in Finnish education which is widely regarded as the best in the western world and one where the teachers are well supported, well resourced, and that is why it works?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I thank the Deputy for his question. There are 3 parts to that really. The first thing with regard to the unions, there has not been any behind the scenes talking to the unions. When I was dealing with the public sector reform, one of the ways in which I deal with things is to get very highly involved and one of the unions that approached Education in the first place approached me and she said to me she had observed what I was doing, observed the way in which I got involved in things on the ground. She was very respectful of me and had said that she would support me moving forward. There was a dislocation, you are quite right, Deputy, in terms of the other unions. I think that has been rectified. We have brought all the other unions to the table now. I have a book here in front of me called Finnish Lessons. If anybody is interested in education, he is absolutely right, Finland is somewhere we need to look. I will just read out a small part of it: “The Finnish way of educational change should be encouraging to those who have found the path of competition, choice, test-based accountability and performance-based pay to be a dead end. The future of Finnish education described above can moreover offer an alternative means to customised learning. The Finnish way is to tailor the needs of each child with flexible arrangements and different learning paths. Technology is not a substitute but merely a tool to complement interaction with teachers and fellow students. As a countervailing force against the global education reform movement driving school systems around the world, the Finnish way reveals that creative curricula, autonomous teachers, courageous leadership and high performance go together. The Finnish way furthermore makes plain that collaboration ...”

The Deputy Bailiff:

Deputy, the answer is ...?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I will be very short, Sir. “Collaboration not conflict with teacher unions leads to better results. The evidence is clear and should be the road ahead.” I totally agree.

1.1.8 Deputy P.D. McLinton of St. Saviour:

The candidate mentioned in his speech the post-16 curriculum, good society, lifelong learning and an educational spring that is coming. Should he be successful in his clawing for the job, in this educational spring would the candidate consider planting a seed that will eventually grow into a Jersey university?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Thank you for that question. I believe we already have what I would call a Campus Jersey. We have Highlands; it is highly regarded and it is moving in the right direction. I mentioned in my speech what the new head is implying he will be doing over the next few years. I believe we already have a Jersey international business school. We already have a law college. I think the only thing missing in a Campus Jersey at this moment in time would be something like an I.T. college.

1.1.9 Deputy T.A. Vallois of St. John:

The candidate talks about creativity, which is welcomed. Not all people, though, are academic and therefore sometimes are made to feel as if they are failures before they even begin. Other than vocational skills, what does the candidate see as alternatives to providing opportunities and choice for our future generations?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

They are many and varied. One of the great things that I witnessed in working with Highlands College in particular was the way in which the courses have evolved.

[10:00]

So people will not really know too much about, let us take the cookery side of things as an example where the course itself some years ago was nearly at the point where it was going to fold. People were not interested. I know there has been a great deal of advancement with regard to cookery in the media. We have now got a situation where students from our cookery courses, which are over-subscribed, are not only being taken into restaurants for people like Jamie Oliver and the like but one of our students recently cooked at one of the top restaurants in the world. That is what we are doing. We are beginning to look across what we need to do to fit those evidences, to fit those spaces where in the past they have probably not been given high regard, and in particular the digital sector is very much on my agenda.

1.1.10 Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:

We have all heard stories of young children arriving at school having had no breakfast, no packed lunch, inappropriately dressed, often in dirty clothes, consistently late; in a word, neglected children being brought up in seriously dysfunctional families. Can the candidate explain how in practical terms these issues can be addressed in order that every child has an equal chance regardless of their family background?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think the article in the interview that was given by the new Director of Education highlighted that very fact. He was quite astonished to come into schools and find what has just been articulated by the Deputy. What we have begun to do - there are some around the schools already but we are considering looking to increase that factor - is to give breakfast clubs an opportunity where children know they come in ... if a child is well-fed, if a child is nourished in all sorts of way, they are more open to, they are more accessible to education. So it is on our agenda to make sure that that sort of thing is dealt with.

1.1.11 Connétable J.E. Le Maistre of Grouville:

Grouville School causes considerable chaos on every school day because of the lack of parking facilities and pick-up facilities. I brought a proposition to the Chamber last July to ask for the problem to be addressed and the Chamber, by a large majority, backed the proposal. Progress is very slow. The candidate voted against the proposition, which I do not hold against him, but will he see the wishes of the Chamber fulfilled both in this case and in other cases where the Assembly so demonstrably expresses its wishes?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I am glad you do not hold that against me. At that point in time I think I was trying to make the point that if I am working in education I will fight for every piece of space that that particular school has and I was most concerned that we were losing some elements of what we had. But the proposition went ahead and I am sorry there has been a delay. I did not know about the delay. I will work with the Constable to make sure that we alleviate the problem because the best thing in the world is making sure that all the children arrive on time to receive the best education they can. So I will honour that.

1.1.12 Connétable D. W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:

No matter the excellence of teaching staff, pupils may be held back by personal medical issues such as A.D.H.D. (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) and dyslexia. Often these are not identified and pupils therefore lose out on their education. If elected as Minister for Education, what would the candidate do to identify these issues and to manage them not only in the first instance but throughout a pupil’s educational career?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think we have a very good inclusion department that is well aware of these problems. I know it is very high on their agenda. I have dealt with several of the appeal students that were going from one school to another. Generally there are reasons behind that and they are the kind of reasons that have been outlined by the Constable. I do not know what is being done with regard to those particular things and I am not going to stand here and say I will do this and I will do that if I am not in full receipt of the information, but I will take on board what the Constable said and I will look at that and I will see what I can do to achieve what she set out.

1.1.13 Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. Helier:

How does the Deputy believe that the Jersey education system can be made more accessible and equitable for all? For example, would he make available many more scholarships for the Island’s fee-paying schools, thus giving parents more choice? Does he agree that the access to education choice should not be determined by ability to pay only?

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Yes, I do. Somewhere within the speech is the notion that what we should do is make sure that no child is left behind. I think he is absolutely right. There are opportunities for us to rediscover and redesign the education system as it stands. If it demands that what we have to do is consider scholarships then certainly that will be given the respect due.

1.1.14 Senator Z.A. Cameron:

I.T. certainly presents opportunities for young people but it also presents hazards. I just wondered what safeguards the Deputy might put in place.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Could you expand on what you mean by hazards?

Senator Z.A. Cameron:

It has psychological problems, addiction, that kind of thing.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

I think we have a safety ...

The Deputy Bailiff:

Deputy Bryans, thank you. If you could be ready to withdraw from the Chamber and Deputy Tadier to return. When you are ready, Deputy.

1.2 Deputy M. Tadier:

It is not good when even your party colleagues desert you but I am sure they are listening somewhere. I stand here not as the Chief Minister’s choice for Education and what is currently Sport and Culture but as somebody who is passionate about the department, about education and all that goes with it. This is the position in which I would like to serve, where I think my skillset lies and the areas about which I am passionate. In my manifesto only less than a month ago I did say that I wanted to invest in education across the board, not simply financially of course but in terms of energy and invigoration so that no child would be left behind. I have come to speak today not simply as the Deputy from St. Brelade but as a Jersey lad who was given a chance to get a good education both here in the Island and by going away. Were it not for the bursary that was made available in the Island I certainly would not have been able to go to university. My parents would not have been able to fund that and I would have stayed here, and I am sure I would be doing something else possibly equally or more happy but it would have been a completely different path for me. I wasted no time in going to see the Director of Education after the elections. In fact, we tried to see him before but of course it was too busy. I was very impressed that we have got this new director who has come in who apparently understands the system very well despite the fact he has only been here a short time. He has got a handle on it, he has got a great track record in the U.K. in the areas that he has worked in. He said that he has inherited a great team, the staff up at Education are great, but there have been problems that have been left to lie in Jersey. I suggested that not much had happened in the Education Department in the last 6 years. Partly I knew that from my work on Education and Home Affairs, which I have been serving on for the last 2 terms. He said you can extend that to 10 years. In Education, despite the good staff, it has not been standards or student-focused for at least the last 10 years. He said we have been looking at anything but focused on standards, and that is what he wants to work on and that is certainly what I want to work on. I spoke to the Chief Minister about that as well very shortly after also. I do have sympathy and I think I tend to agree with the Minister’s stance that the current education system we have is not one that we would have designed. It is not one that anybody logical would have written down and said this is what we must do. It is something that has grown up organically in Jersey and it is, I believe, sub-optimal; it is fraught with problems. I think that is something that we need to deal with at some point but in the interim, in the short term, it would take so long to disentangle. We have seen from what happened in the 1990s, entrenched positions depending on which schools people went to, et cetera, and it was not easy for that to be resolved. So in the short term, and this is where certainly the Education Director is coming from, we must focus on standards. When we talk about no children being left behind, that is what is happening at the moment. For the first time in many years Jersey has fallen behind the U.K. It is important that we start to benchmark in terms of where we are coming from and the results that are being achieved, not simply the results on the face of it but what underlies them about the value added. That is something that needs to be done urgently. The director told me that we do not have a problem with the high-achieving students in Jersey. If you are an A or A-star level student either at G.C.S.E. or A-level you will achieve those grades. The problem is if you are a C grade student at G.C.S.E., or you are achieving Ds and Es that is problem. We are letting people down at the lower end. That is not surprising when we have a highly selective and in some ways elite system that subsidises those who can already be well placed. That is something that does need to be tackled. We cannot simply bury our heads in the sand and, if I am elected, I will do both jobs of instituting transitional standards to improve but also a longer-term goal. We know it is not easy because there is a big political lobby out there which votes and which the Ministers have been reluctant to take on in the past. I will certainly do that tough job and I will not really mind if it costs me my seat if it means that we get a better system in the Island. What do I bring to the table otherwise? I am somebody with a track record, even as a Back-Bencher, for getting things done when it comes to education and culture. I saved the Old Library from being sold off, which was a budget amendment I put in. Now that houses the Alliance Française. If that building had been sold we would not have that very great organisation in there, which we all support. I protected French assistants. They were going to be axed. Ministers said: “No, Minister, you have to protect these.” That was my proposition. I brought requests for a modern languages review, which has just been published and again achieved unanimous support. Outside the States, I have served on the Arts Centre Committee. I am passionate about the arts and their development in Jersey. I have organised, along with the Parish of St. Helier, music events, jazz trios to come over - quartets actually - to play in the Royal Square at minimal cost to Jersey and the ratepayers. That was enjoyed by many people, tourists and locals alike, and the hoteliers of the Royal Square. Of course, I am a promoter of local culture and heritage when it comes to Jèrriais, the music and traditions of our Island. Like my opponent often says at the end of his emails: “Be audacious”; when it comes to languages and education more generally I am audacious. I believe in an Island such as Jersey where we have a tradition of being so close to France but we also have a rich tradition now of immigrants who speak their own languages alongside ours, whether it is Portuguese, Polish, French or increasingly even some Chinese, we should be teaching students those languages at the younger stage because early intervention, if you like, early teaching when it comes to languages in particular is where you get the maximum output for the minimum input, both financially and educationally. We should be aiming to have bilingual students leaving school by the age of 11 and I think we should also aim to get trilingualism by the time of 16. That is achievable in other areas. If you go to Switzerland and Scandinavian countries, it is a matter of course and they have their other specialities alongside. I am also keen to make sure that maths and the basics are taught very well. We know that there is an issue about students not leaving primary school with basic literacy, and moreover basic numeracy, and that is hardly surprising if we do not employ qualified maths teachers to do that.

[10:15]

If we employ amateurs, and I mean that in the nicest sense of the word - all-rounders - we cannot always expect to get high results in numeracy. That is not fair on parents, students or the teachers themselves. We need a longer lead-in for G.C.S.E.s. It is quite strange that we only start teaching the G.C.S.E. syllabus really in year 9, effectively 10 and 11, when people are already going and students are already going into assessment by that stage. It should be started earlier, year 7, and that would give some of the, let us say, less academic students a chance to get the grades that they deserve. I firmly believe in education for education’s sake but that does not mean that, of course, there is a reconcilable demand for jobs for the market versus jobs for education. I think it is important to be focused on jobs but the way we do that is to teach people to learn as students and to be able to be flexible, and that is I think what the employers in Jersey want. They want jobs and people to be able to lifelong learn, if you like. I am keen about the idea of a Youth Parliament. Generally in Jersey young people have been left behind. We have got 6 golf courses in Jersey that I counted, yet how many skate parks and how many basketball courts, how many Quasar facilities do we have? I will start to sum up, even though I still have got a lot to say. We heard yesterday about my ideas for the Latin quarter. Would it not be great to have a university in Jersey which also had a theatre, which had possibly Government buildings, which had its winter gardens all in one location where we could capture some of that vibrancy that Jersey lacks because of the brain drain often of students not coming back to Jersey. I will leave it there. I think Members have got a feel for where I come from, including the things I said yesterday, and I do ask Members to consider me for this role. It is an area that I am passionate about and which I will be happy to serve in and put all my effort into. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff:

We now come to questions and I call on Deputy Andrew Lewis.

1.2.1 Deputy A.D. Lewis:

Does the candidate believe that the 14-plus transfer works? In some ways it demoralises good teachers who lose their best students and the students appear to lose the students that stimulate them and you end up having a less diverse and mixed abilities class. Does the Deputy believe that the 14-plus transfer works?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I think it works but it is divisive. That is the problem. For those who benefit from the 14-plus system it is great because there is nothing for them otherwise. If you go through the State school sector at that age there is no other grammar school that is available, but the Deputy is absolutely correct. It is divisive and, as I said earlier, we would not have designed such a system. We do need to look at how that works but we do have an over-dependency in Jersey on the fee-paying sector which throws a spanner in the works when it comes to how we might like to run the education system otherwise.

1.2.2 Deputy J.A. Hilton:

The candidate spoke about wanting to invest in education so no child is left behind. We have all heard stories of young children arriving at school having had no breakfast, with no packed lunch, inappropriate dress, often in dirty clothes, consistently late; in a word, neglected children being brought up in seriously dysfunctional families. Can the candidate explain how in practical terms these issues can be addressed in order that every child has an equal chance regardless of their family background?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I am glad the Deputy brought that up. It is something I would have wanted to touch on but for the lack of time. This is something I addressed very quickly with the director because one will remember as soon as he came over there was that front page headline which talked about children turning up to school not fed properly, not necessarily well dressed, and that has a massive impact on educational standards, much more than any building or anything else will have on them. He used a very interesting term. He said they are not so much neglected. They are very much loved in many cases, in most cases. It is just the parents are running round with the hectic nature of life. They are often having to work overtime, the home conditions and the housing conditions are not necessarily good, and there is a synergy there. We spoke very much about the poor quality of housing, the expensive nature of housing which means that parents cannot spend the time that they want to with their children. They are not read to at night, for example, and they are not loved in the practical sense although they are in the other senses. Those were his words, so I think that is the issue, and if there is other forms of neglect going on, but ultimately the point is to bring the poverty gap down in Jersey. If we can bring the gap between rich and poor down and make sure that we have a fairer society where people do not need to work 50 or 60 hours a week then that is the way we do it. That ties-in with the living wage, et cetera.

1.2.3 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

In addition to the problem we have over the selective education system, we also have what seems to be an inbuilt system that favours university education over vocational education. In other words, although people can get grants to go to university, they cannot get grants to go to technical courses, either in the U.K. or anywhere else. Would the candidate treat this as a priority and treat everybody fairly, whether it be vocational or academic?

Deputy M. Tadier:

There is a Frank Zappa quote, which is probably not parliamentary. It says that if you want to get laid go to university; if you want to get educated then go to a library.

The Deputy Bailiff:

You are right, Deputy. That is not parliamentary language.

Deputy M. Tadier:

I withdraw that in that case and I will tell Frank that I am not very happy with him. That is a very important point that the Deputy brings. University education is not for everybody and it is not always going to be a good use of time or money. I think it does provide education simply to leave the Island and come back and it does not need to necessarily be done by going to university. But absolutely, we do not need to provide vocational qualifications and we also need to make sure that those jobs that are being got at the end of the vocation are valued both monetarily but also culturally. That is an issue at the moment.

1.2.4 Senator L.J. Farnham:

I think it was Deputy Hilton who said yesterday those who get the most assistance in society are those at the end of the scale or those at the higher end of the scale but leaving those in the middle often in difficult positions. Would the candidate seek to revise the assistance for students wishing to attend university? I know it is simply a financial burden that many of middle-Jersey simply cannot deal with. Does he agree that no suitably academic student should be prohibited from going to university due to lack of funding?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I absolutely agree with those sentiments. That is something we looked at on our panel and I have been surprised that we have been able to keep the grant system going for so long in Jersey compared to the U.K. where loans are almost automatic now and there are very few grants apart from the very worst off. It is absolutely something we need to address, but if money does become scarce how do we raise that, Senator? I think if we want to do it through progressive taxation, if those very high earners in Jersey want to pay an extra 5 or 10 per cent then that is fine, but we know that is not supported by the majority of this Assembly.

1.2.5 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Does the candidate agree that the model for our education should be the Finnish one, and not the U.K. model, which is well respected throughout the western world and seen as the model to base an education system on because it respects and resources its teachers well? How will he deal with the split that has occurred as a result of the Chief Minister’s actions whereby 2 unions have been seriously disaffected by negotiations taking place with one union and how will he bring teacher morale up to scratch?

Deputy M. Tadier:

That is a composite question. The Finnish model, of course, has to be contextualised in the wider economic and cultural model of Finland which has a completely different outlook on social provision, taxation and what the value system of their community is, which is starkly different to Jersey’s. It is certainly something I support generally because I think it makes for a more cohesive society and a fairer society. When it comes to teachers, I think it is absolutely important that we have somebody in the education role who can take staff, parents and pupils and students along with him in this case. I am concerned that that has not been the case up until now and I think having someone around the table who is perhaps more sympathetic to the union way of doing things along with the traditional variety of Ministers will only be a good thing.

1.2.6 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet:

The candidate mentioned that he would have a focus on raising standards and that there has not been previously… and this puzzles me somewhat because surely the day-to-day work of Education is raising the achievement of students. But I would like to know specifically what the candidate would do and would he engage with teachers and listen to their ideas, because surely they are the ones that understand the children the best?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Absolutely. Let me just explain one example. Those are the words of the director which tallied with my experiences that for the last 10 years the department has been treading water, despite the good work that goes on. I should have added that we have got to the point where Le Rocquier School for a couple of years stopped teaching and examining G.C.S.E. music and this was the school, of course, which was famous for the Le Rocquier Island Band that then does not even teach G.C.S.E. music, so why did we allow this to get into that state? But absolutely it is important that that dialogue and that faith between government and teachers is restored because I think that has been eroded. We know that teachers, despite what some people think about the long holidays and easy life they get, put in very long hours at work and are often increasingly under stress.

1.2.7 Deputy S. Y. Mézec of St. Helier:

You often read about schools in the U.K. and particularly in London where a large proportion of pupils there do not have English as their first language or even cannot speak it at all. Could I ask the candidate what he perceives as the challenges in Jersey for people going to school who do not have as good a grasp on English as you would necessarily hope for them in education here?

Deputy M. Tadier:

The students we are talking about at the young end, 3, 4, 5 year-olds who come from perhaps a non-native English speaking family, when they go into school that must be seen as a challenge but it is not a problem in my book because very quickly those students will develop to be bilingual. By the time they leave primary school they will be fluent in their mother tongue and in English. The issue we have got is managing that transition because at schools, for example, like Rouge Bouillon - it is again something I discussed with the director - they do not have the provision, they do not have the native Portuguese or Polish speakers, and when I say “native”, they do not even have trained staff who know those languages who need to liaise with parents. That ties-in with Deputy Hilton’s question about neglect. If parents cannot understand the obligations and the needs that are required in that community then that is when a gap can develop. It is not so much in the fact that these students will not end up learning English. It is about the fact that they may be put back and there may be wider disruption and segregation in those schools, which is ultimately divisive.

1.2.8 Connétable S.W. Pallett of St. Brelade:

Digital skills will be vitally important over the forthcoming years if we are to have a successful digital sector that is not reliant on inward migration. The Digital Skills Sub-Panel last year made several recommendations in regard to the implementation of the Thinking Differently I.T. strategy for schools. How would the candidate make sure there is a consistent approach to not only the delivery of the I.T. curriculum but also the use of new technology in both primary and secondary schools to ensure that no child is disadvantaged irrespective of their background?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Thank you to the Constable for that question. In one sense, of course, it is the students who are going to be teaching us and the teachers. There is almost a sense in which the teachers are the ones who are going to have to learn because often we see even young children walking around with one of these tablets who know their way round it better than their parents. But of course on a much more fundamental level, when it comes to computer programming and things like that, that is the language not of the future but of today, and if students are leaving school without those basics - I say basics for them; in fact for us they would be seen as quite high level skills - then they are going to fall behind. So there does need to be that joined-up approach from all the schools to make sure that you do not get schools but also students, as the Constable says, falling behind, because not everyone can afford one of these. That is really the key issue if you do not have access, so I think absolutely there is a lot to be done and it is certainly something I would like to work on and make sure that our school locally is consistent with the rest of the Island.

1.2.9 Connétable C.H. Taylor of St. John:

I am concerned that we are blindly following a U.K. curriculum. Can the candidate give us an undertaking to include a Jersey section in the curriculum that will include such things as our heritage, agriculture, our honorary system and our political and parochial systems?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Thank you to the Deputy for his question. Constable, sorry.

[10:30]

I have got that in my notes, and I can show you the notes after. It is absolutely correct; we do need to have what I think I would call a local studies module in every school, possibly at different stages: at primary school ... we know there is some very good stuff that goes on already in this Assembly and that is largely due to the great work of the Greffe. Students come in in Year 6 and then again there is the possibility for the Youth Assembly here, but we do need it to be more joined-up, we need to know about our local culture. There is a Welsh lecturer at Cambridge who teaches Jèrriais in the U.K., so we have got people learning our language in the U.K. whereas we do not even necessarily have it over here. She said something which struck a chord with me: that if we do not teach our local language, and by extension culture, who is going to do it? Nobody out there is going to be teaching people to speak Jèrriais, it is up to us to determine whether we value these things and to invest in that. As I said yesterday, as far as Jèrriais is concerned, I would like to make sure that benefits from protection and recognition as a minority language within the U.K. and the wider European community.

1.2.10 The Deputy of Grouville:

Would the candidate agree that the professional partners are not an acceptable alternative to external examination and assessment of schools as they do not visit the classroom, they visit the headmaster’s office?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I think it is important that we have proper independent inspections in schools and that any issues that are flagged-up can be done so in the correct way. Certainly, if that is not happening at the moment, it needs to be reviewed; something I will take up, and perhaps I can speak to the Deputy afterwards.

1.2.11 Deputy J.M. Maçon of St. Saviour:

What is the candidate’s policy regarding special educational needs in the Island?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I think that is critical, and what we have seen is that many of the schools which specialise in that provision are often seen as the schools which sometimes mainstream parents do not want to send their children to because, on the face of it, they do not always achieve the grades. This is where it is important to look at the value added. If you are taking in a cohort of students which is from a diverse demographic with lots of different social problems, or rather challenges, of course that does not always show up on the grades balance sheet at the end of the day. We do need more to support that, but we also need to make sure that all schools across the Island are doing what they can to provide in the increasingly acute area of special provision.

1.2.12 Senator P.F. Routier:

In many areas of Europe, the business community are now taking a stronger interest in what happens in schools and going into schools and building a relationship with the schools and the new academies which are being established. Does the candidate feel that there is a place for the business community to be a part of assisting the education system?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I think there is. I think we have to be careful; we need to make sure that at all times we are teaching students how to think and not what to think. If the business community wants to give money to schools to help them, that is absolutely great. If they want to give money to help build cultural or sporting facilities, that is great as well, and I do not see why it cannot be acknowledged in the form of sponsorship. I would probably draw the line at some of the more extreme things that we have seen in the U.S. where Coca Cola and McDonalds are sponsoring things in the school to the point where we rely too heavily on corporate sponsorship. I do not think that is what the Senator means. So by all means, yes, anything that the business community can do in terms of synergies is to be welcomed.

1.2.13 Deputy A.D. Lewis:

In our current system, many teachers spend years, sometimes decades, at the same school. Does the candidate believe that the education system and the teachers themselves would benefit from moving around the network of schools, which surely would greatly aid teachers’ professional development? Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier:

I spoke to one of the senior teachers at Hautlieu not so long ago and I think that is the angle he was coming from. It is important, if not so much for teachers to change school on a period basis, certainly to have greater interaction with other teachers so that the ideas can be shared. It may well be a 6-month or a year placement and exchange between schools so that one can learn how other people and other places do things. Even with Guernsey, there is no reason that we should not necessarily be sending our teachers over to Guernsey, and vice versa; that could be a great way to share experience.

1.2.14 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As education is for life and training is for life, and we need to have the most capable population we can have, what actions would the candidate take to help those who are either unemployed or working in an industry which could be declining, to get new skills in the form of grants or working with income tax to try and give some tax concessions to enable them to train?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I think there is already a lot of good work going on with Social Security; I have had the pleasure of meeting some of the staff down there: things like Trackers are very good. We have got to be careful that there are real jobs out there, that we are not just subsidising, in some cases, phantom jobs. But I think definitely there needs to be more dialogue. In the old days... I have got family members who trained as an apprentice for a stonemason as soon as they left school; in those days probably at 14. They have never been out of work since and they have either worked privately in construction or for a States department. So it is a very good way to learn a trade and I think we can only do more in that respect.

1.2.15 Senator L.J. Farnham:

Does the candidate believe that hot school lunches, and in some instances breakfast, should be available to all primary school children and, if so, if successful, would he agree to explore the viability of that? There is no need to refer to the introduction of progressive taxation to do so; we know his stance on that.

Deputy M. Tadier:

Yes, we could start with reintroducing school milk, I think, which would mean that at least at primary school that would do 2 things: it would support our local farming and dairy industry and give children some nutrition for their young bones and teeth. Certainly there needs to be provision for breakfast clubs; they do already run. I think breakfast is probably the most important thing, but also hot lunches. I do not know if hot lunches are necessarily better than cold ones, but it is certainly something which can be looked at.

1.2.16 Deputy G.P. Southern:

What will the candidate do to eliminate the tick-box approach to assessment and recordkeeping, in primary schools in particular, where a student may have up to 300 boxes to be ticked? In a class of 25 it is impossible.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Very well then, we will wait for Deputy Bryans to return to the Chamber ... and, indeed, any other Members to return if they wish to do so. If all Members have returned, the vote is on the appointment to Minister for Education, Sport and Culture. You vote P if you want to vote for Deputy Bryans, you vote C if you want to vote for Deputy Tadier. I ask the Greffier to open the voting.

Deputy R. G. Bryans: 37	Deputy T. Tadier: 6	Abstain: 0
Senator P.F. Routier	Connétable of St. Helier
Senator A.J.H. Maclean	Deputy J.A. Martin (H)
Senator I.J. Gorst	Deputy G.P. Southern (H)
Senator L.J. Farnham	Deputy M. Tadier (B)
Senator P.M. Bailhache	Deputy M.R. Higgins (H)
Senator A.K.F. Green	Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)
Senator Z.A. Cameron
Connétable of St. Clement
Connétable of St. Peter
Connétable of St. Lawrence
Connétable of St. Mary
Connétable of St. Ouen
Connétable of St. Brelade
Connétable of St. Martin
Connétable of St. Saviour
Connétable of Grouville
Connétable of St. John
Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)
Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)
Deputy E.J. Noel (L)
Deputy of St. John
Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)
Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)
Deputy of St. Martin
Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
Deputy of St. Peter
Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)
Deputy of St. Ouen
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet (S)
Deputy S.M. Wickenden (H)
Deputy S.M. Brée (C)
Deputy M.J. Norton (B)
Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
Deputy of St. Mary
Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)
Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)

The Deputy Bailiff:

I can declare that Deputy Bryans has been elected.

Deputy R.G. Bryans:

Can I just thank the Assembly and say that I will honour all the commitments made in my speech. Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier:

Sir, can I also congratulate Deputy Bryans and wish him all the best for the next 3½ years in that post.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Thank you. Chief Minister?

2. The Minister for Social Security

Senator I.J. Gorst:

Yes, for the post of Minister for Social Security, I should like to nominate Deputy Pinel.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations for the Minister for Social Security position?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Yes, Sir, I would like to nominate Deputy Judy Martin.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Yes, Sir, I would like to nominate Deputy Southern.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Very well, then I will ask Deputy Southern and Deputy Martin to withdraw from the Chamber. Deputy Pinel?

2.1 Deputy S. Pinel of St. Clement:

I am honoured to have been nominated by the Chief Minister for the position as Minister for Social Security. Having served as Minister for Social Security himself, he understands the demands of the job and that I am capable of fulfilling the role. After 3 years as Assistant Minister, I have an up-to-date and detailed knowledge of policy development and the accompanying legislation; 2 major examples being long-term care and discrimination law. The Minister’s role is one of financial responsibility, but a major role is also one of social responsibility. I have been part of the Treasury Advisory Panel for the last 3 years: T.A.P. is for the Common Investment Fund, of which £1.33 billion are Social Security assets comprising mainly the Social Security Reserve Fund or pension fund. There is also the Health Insurance Fund, currently standing at £86 million, utilised mainly for primary care; one example is subsidising G.P. (General Practitioner) visits to the tune of £20.28 per consultation. Another example is prescription and dispensing charges, which are very significant. I have run my own successful business for over 30 years; while not with the aforementioned budget figures, the principles remain the same: the importance of the balance of income and expenditure. In the last 3 years I have been a trustee of the Jersey Employment Trust, which encourages, finds and supports work for people with disabilities. The extraordinary success of placing 100 people in jobs has been very recently reported in the media. [Approbation] I have also represented Social Security on the Housing and Work Advisory Group which is responsible for implementing the Housing and Work (Jersey) Law and for issuing business licences, or not. As Members will know, I have been a chairman of Brig-y-Don Children’s Charity and Residential Home for over 13 years, so was very pleased to be invited to participate on the Children and Adult Policy Panel and contribute my experience. I am a strong believer in partnership working; I will continue to develop this within Social Security and with other departments, notably Health and Social Services, and also supporting Education with school leavers and jobs. It is vitally important, with Social Security being responsible for employment law, to maintain and develop further relations with business groups such as Chamber of Commerce, the Institute of Directors and the Institute of Management. Also, the voluntary and community sector, Citizens Advice Bureau and the Consumer Council. Every good Minister listens to advice. My approach to the role of Minister for Social Security would be based on 3 principles: affordability, balance and common sense. Of course, this is not as easy as A, B, C but I think this is a reasonable framework to engage with our community and to explain what we are trying to do with the resources available. A total of £333 million was spent on benefits and administration by the department in 2013. While investment returns on the Common Investment Fund have been extremely good, there is an absolute responsibility to match benefits given to contributions received, in whatever form. The benefits should be targeted to those most in need, not a blanket provision. Last year, a total of £185 million was collected in contributions, but we paid £154 million in old age pensions in Jersey and overseas alone. With projected ageing demographics, by 2030 the number of people over 65 will have doubled. We again have to address affordability and balance. We need a working population to provide the contributions to support the increasing length of pension claims, possibly up to 25 years’ worth. £75 million was paid out in income support in 2013; approximately 1 in 3 households receive a regular payment from Social Security.

[10:45]

My priorities, were I to be elected as Minister, would be to ensure continuity and development of the extremely successful Back to Work programme, incorporating all the incentives, training and mentoring in the schemes such as Advance to Work, Advance Plus, JobsFest, Community Job Scheme and others. We still have an unemployment problem but, with the latest figure at 1,450, the lowest since November 2011, it proves the scheme is working. I would hope to be able to target some of the help to parent returners and the long-term sick, those on long-term incapacity allowance, to support the people that could work, get back into work. It is an undeniable fact that when people can work and achieve financial independence, self-esteem and state of mind improves enormously. Due to the Back to Work programme, the numbers of unemployed have dropped, as have the numbers of people on income support. Discrimination law has been introduced, with race as the initial added characteristic. Sex discrimination and family-friendly law drafting will require review before introduction in 2015. I would like to explore a longer period of paid maternity leave and a higher minimum wage, but the cost to small businesses must be recognised and addressed: affordability and balance. Next on the agenda is age discrimination, combining with the gradual increase in the pension age. Bringing in disability discrimination is high on my agenda and I fully support the ongoing work on a disability strategy which will underpin the law. Social Security has, and is, benefitting greatly from the Lean programme with the introduction of better client service areas and shortening of client transaction time. I would want to maintain and build upon current service standards, improving ease of use, efficiency and effectiveness. I would also like to improve the accessible information related to available benefits for customers. As was alluded to yesterday, there is huge opportunity for collaboration with Treasury and Tax Departments for contribution, debt collection and compliance. Social Security is a data business: we are already working with the Tax Department for the collection of contributions from January 2015 for long-term care. Without considerations of affordability and balance, the only alternative would be to increase taxes, G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) and social security contributions or reduce services and support elsewhere. The C of A, B, C - common sense - to me is a given: I have it in shed-loads. What we do must make sense to our community and be proportionate and appropriate. Finally, as Assistant Minister for Social Security for the past 3 years, I have served my apprenticeship. At the same time, I share a vision of a society that promotes good health and social wellbeing for all and treats people with illness, disabilities, financial problems and those in unemployment, fairly, positively and with respect. Of course, it is not an easy balance to make and I think my experience over the last 3 years with the former Minister and the department at the sharp end of introducing policies, is of enormous value. The former Minister brought most of these propositions to the States with my significant input to them. It could be termed as succession planning. I am a team player; like all good apprentices I have listened, learned, attended every meeting available to me, which were many, demonstrated my ability to work with States Members, departments, panels and working groups, and at all times with courtesy and respect. I hope the Assembly will have the faith in me to take on the role of Minister for Social Security in the knowledge that I work hard, I am a good communicator, I am honest and, most of all, I care. Thank you. [Approbation]

2.1.1 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Could the candidate tell Members how many people under the age of 25 are unemployed and how many people over the age of 50 are unemployed, and what policies she is going to bring forward to get the over-50s, for example, back to work, whereas there is work being done for the under-25s?

Deputy S. Pinel:

A whole mount of work is now being concentrated on the long-term unemployed so that, as the Deputy mentioned, the over-50s who have been unemployed for a considerable amount of time, and a lot of the work with the Back to Work team and Advance Plus is concentrated on getting those people back into work, because they have normally been unemployed for a great length of time. As I said in my speech, being in work improves self-esteem and financial independence. Work is also being concentrated on school leavers, who generally tend to be the under-25s, to prevent them from becoming long-term unemployed.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

I did ask for the figures for the numbers of people under 25 and over 50.

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes. I will get those to the Deputy as soon as possible.

2.1.2 Deputy M.J. Norton of St. Brelade:

Within business, there is a great deal of debate and fear within those employers at the moment that employing people is something that they are not prepared to do, in many cases, because of the restrictive laws that are in place concerning unfair dismissal after 26 weeks. It is something that is handcuffing business at the moment and it is not reducing the unemployment levels greatly, whereas if that were freed up, then possibly that would not be the case. Will the candidate, if successful, be prepared to review this and give any assurances to the Assembly?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I thank the Deputy for the question. Unfair dismissal has been very controversial. It is a qualifying period of 6 months in Jersey, it is a year in Guernsey and 2 years in the U.K. It is the Employment Forum’s recommendation, which the former Minister agreed to for the 6 months. I think there is a big move to extend it to a year but this has to be done in consultation with the Employment Forum, the policy advisers at Social Security and the law draftsmen, and obviously with the business enterprise.

2.1.3 The Connétable of Grouville:

Would the candidate commit to undertaking research as to why, or possibly if, our income support system is letting those on low incomes down so badly that we need to have food banks in Jersey?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I disagree with the Connétable that the income support system is letting people down very badly; it is constantly under review and the mention of the food parcels, I am quite well aware of, which are mainly supplied by the Grace Trust, and they are largely being dispensed to the people who do not have a 5-year residency in Jersey and are therefore not entitled to income support.

2.1.4 Deputy M. Tadier:

Will the candidate comment on the practice whereby women who are aged between 60 and 65, who may be in receipt of a pension are being asked to go out there and find work, which is not always easy, especially in the absence of any age discrimination law?

Deputy S. Pinel:

The pension age is 65 and, up until that age, everybody has to be a jobseeker.

Deputy M. Tadier:

A supplementary, Sir ...

The Deputy Bailiff:

Deputy, there are string of Members wanting to ask questions.

Deputy M. Tadier:

There was an understanding from the previous Chair that ...

The Deputy Bailiff:

That was yesterday, today is today; the rules change. Deputy Mézec?

2.1.5 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

Does the candidate agree with me that it is utterly perverse that the more you earn the lower a proportion of your income you pay in social security? Does she believe that the cap on social security for high earners should be raised so that we can fund better services and do not constantly have to cut things for those who have the least among us?

Deputy S. Pinel:

The higher earners I think the Deputy would be referring to is the middle-earnings limit or the standard-earnings limit, which is £47,000. The income is constantly under review, and that is being looked at at the moment as to whether that standard-earnings limit should be increased.

2.1.6 Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase the Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support: increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I am sorry, Sir, could I ask the Deputy to repeat the question; there was some conversation going on on the right and I could not hear?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Certainly. The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase the Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support: increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I am not quite sure what the Deputy is referring to when he says: “Increase the Social Security funding.” Could he expand a little more, please?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Certainly. The retiring Minister expressed the need that in order to meet the cost of ongoing Social Security needs ... I think he did refer to the Health Insurance Fund, but certainly the Social Security aspect, he expressed that the next Minister would need to be bold in bringing forward proposals to increase funding into that system. There are 2 methods to do that; which one does the candidate prefer?

Deputy S. Pinel:

By increasing the Social Security Reserve Fund, which is invested in the Common Investment Fund, it increased last year, with interest - it was an extraordinary year - by £92 million, but that does not mean to say that is going to carry on like that; it was a very good year last year. The Health Investment Fund needs to be watched very carefully because that has about a 3-year capacity, according to the latest government Actuarial Department report, and that is under debate and discussion as to whether, because it deals with primary care, this should be moved to the Health Department or the Treasury.

2.1.7 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

I have been frantically trying to think of a question, because I was beaten by Deputy Mézec. I think we spoke about dentistry yesterday and I have had anecdotal evidence of people attending at the department requiring emergency dental treatment and being refused, even though they were entitled to it. How would the candidate propose to deal with that and also make those recipients of income support aware that, indeed, they are entitled to it?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes. There is a dental scheme at Income Support and I think it comes into a lot of the equations; that we need to communicate better with the public as to what the public can receive. I appreciate where the Connétable is coming from with this that people are not aware of their entitlements under some of the schemes, and dentistry is certainly one of them. Also, under the dentistry side, there is a dental review going on at the moment which should be available in the next few months, and also it was mentioned yesterday the Child Smile, which is starting in the primary schools at the moment, of which I am very supportive. I would like to look at the departments contributing towards that, because at the moment it has just been started by 2 dental hygienists off their own back, and I really think the departments should be supporting that.

2.1.8 Senator Z.A. Cameron:

I just wonder what the likely impact of the Babylon initiative and G.P. consultations is thought to be?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Sorry. Sir, I could not hear the Senator.

Senator Z.A. Cameron:

What is the likely impact of the proposed Babylon G.P. consultation initiative to Social Security?

Deputy S. Pinel:

The Babylon initiative is going to be trialled in Jersey and it is a free trial, because Babylon is a private company, and it will be, for those Members who have not come across it, a video consultation with your G.P. to avoid having to do the visit, which is certainly very significant for the elderly or disabled who may not be able to visit the G.P. personally. So they can have a video consultation and G.P.s would have to possibly provide an hour or hour and a half a day of their practice time in order to answer these questions from patients. It is on trial at no cost, and we will have to see how the trial works.

2.1.9 Senator L.J. Farnham:

What are the candidate’s views on zero-hour contracts and, if successfully elected to the position of Minister, would she consider tightening-up the rules relating to them?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Zero-hours is a controversial subject. The manpower survey, which will be released at the end of 2014, will release the number of zero-hours; the total of them and which industry they are most likely to be used in.

[11:00]

They are very helpful; we have always had locums and supply teachers, who work on a similar basis, and for some employers the zero-hour contracts have meant that they have been able to keep their business afloat. Some, reportedly - but it is only reportedly - have been abused but we have yet to find any evidence of that. There is a questionnaire in the Jersey Annual Social Survey about the zero-hours’ contracts. In June, of the 58,330 employees, 6,050 were on zero-hours’ contracts, so it is being reviewed at the moment and when the manpower survey figures can be put in then we will have a better idea of where the zero-hours contracts are going.

2.1.10 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

In many countries, social security pension funds and national insurance have been raided by Treasury Ministers, they have been merged into central taxation. Will the Minister give a cast-iron guarantee that she will maintain the electric fence between the Social Security Fund and central taxation, but at the same time will she also agree that the Health Insurance Fund needs a complete overhaul?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I thank the Senator for his question and I would not dream of letting the Treasury get their hands on anything that belongs to Social Security, and the Health Insurance Fund certainly does need a complete review, as I mentioned in an earlier question. As to whether it should rest with Health, bearing in mind that it deals with primary care ... Social Security would then be purely a benefit department.

2.1.11 Deputy A.D. Lewis:

Would the candidate support the reintroduction of prescription charges for those that can afford to make a modest contribution to help eliminate some of the waste and, of course, make a useful contribution to meeting future funding gaps?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Again, this is part of an ongoing review in the primary healthcare strategy. We need to protect people with high medical costs, and there are options for doing this, but where prescription charges in the U.K. have been introduced to the 10 per cent who are not under 12 and over 65, it has been fairly disastrous on an income-raising basis, because that is the age group that does not necessarily go to the doctor very often. It is an expensive commodity: in 2013 there were 1.8 million prescriptions in Jersey at a total cost of £18 million to the Health Insurance Fund. So at this stage in the game, as I say, the review is ongoing; it is not ruled out whatsoever, but I do not think it should be a blanket under-12 and over-65, because we could not afford it.

2.1.12 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The candidate’s answers on many questions have been rather woolly. From her answers she gives the impression she feels that the Social Security budget is too high, too much money is being spent, and she is going to try and reduce this. Equally, she has not answered the question does she believe that there should be a cap of £47,000 or should those who can afford to pay more contribute more to the cost of social security in the Island. Can I have some specific answers, please?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I have mentioned earlier that the cap at £47,000 and another at £150,000 will have to be altered in order to accommodate the demands of the social security requirements and can be raised; we are looking at raising that. We have already put 2 per cent on the employers’ contributions, which could be increased, but in a time of recession with employers it is difficult, or we could put another percentage point between the cap on standard earnings limit of £47,000 up to the final cap of £150,000.

2.1.13 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

Does the candidate agree that we should investigate introducing more classes of social security contributions, particularly for people who are self-employed who may find that the current system puts them off from starting a business and taking the risk, because of the perceived unfairness there may be in having to pay more social security contributions directly from their own pocket or lose their entitlement to pensions and benefits?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes, I do. I think a separate contribution, be it class 3 or 4, for the self-employed is absolutely essential because at the moment it puts people off starting businesses if they have to pay 12.5 per cent in contributions, so there should be a separate one. [Approbation]

2.1.14 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Just following up on the candidate’s answer on the cap. If given the option, does the candidate feel that the £150,000 cap should be removed so that those who earn over £150,000 are making greater contributions to the cost of the fund in this Island: yes or no?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I do not think the cap should be removed, but it can be increased, as I said in the answer to the last question from the Deputy. I know everybody says it is being reviewed, but it is being reviewed; income support is constantly under review, as is contributions. So we are looking into raising the standard earnings limit cap of £47,000 and raising the £150,000 cap at the upper earnings limit.

Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Apart from looking at it, are you going to do it?

Deputy S. Pinel:

If the decision is recommended in conjunction with the policy team and the law draftsmen, yes.

The Deputy Bailiff:

If there are no further questions for the Deputy? Senator Ozouf?

2.1.15 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

The candidate has addressed the issue of discrimination generally, but could she make some remarks about her views on discrimination for disabled people and how much the focus of her work might be on the issues that are real issues for disabled people in Jersey?

Deputy S. Pinel:

Yes, thank you. I am very interested, with my background of care with disability and children with disabilities especially, the disability discrimination should be enforced by 2017, after age discrimination. We are investigating it and hopefully might be able to bring it forward, but all these laws take an enormous amount of time to legislate: law drafting here and then the Privy Council in the U.K., as the Senator will know. I am keen to get it in in my term of office for discrimination, and waiting for the Council of Ministers production of the disability strategy, which will underpin the law and which I fully support. So when we have that strategy it will give us the framework to work forward with the discrimination law.

2.1.16 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

I do not think we have heard anything yet about the living wage, so does the candidate agree that the most effective way of reducing income support payments would be to encourage employers, both in the private sector and at the States themselves, to pay people enough so that they can work full-time and make an honest living without having to resort to income support?

Deputy S. Pinel:

I mentioned in my speech that I would like to see a higher minimum wage but, of course, this is the recommendation of the Employment Forum. The living wage is a voluntary wage, it is not compulsory, and in the U.K. I believe is about just over £8 an hour. In Jersey the minimum wage is £6.63, which goes up to £6.78 fairly soon, which was devised largely for the agriculture and hospitality industries when the industries provided board and lodging. So minimum wage at the present time, if it is somebody who is not in the hospitality industry, is considered to be too low. A living wage would be higher but it would be down to the employer to voluntarily contribute that and, yes, I think it would keep staff for longer if they were being paid better. I agree.

The Deputy Bailiff:

That brings question time to an end, so I ask Deputy Pinel to withdraw and the Greffier to ask Deputy Martin to return. Deputy Martin?

2.2 Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:

Coming from next door, this is quite an easy task; there is nothing more daunting than standing in the Royal Court. So who is Judy Martin, and does she want this job? Well, my first instinct was, when I saw the slate, I thought: “No, let them have it and wait till it falls off the roof and smashes into a million pieces” but I could not convince enough of my other people who think politically, like me, to let them have the slate and, as they say, be hoisted by their own ... “façade” is it?

The Deputy Bailiff:

Petard.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I know I said the word wrong. But who is Deputy Martin? Deputy Martin has been an Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services for the last 6 years, held complete confidentiality, and worked and been held up as being part of the inclusive government because they had a “Red in the bed” - under the bed - but she was a Red; and she worked very well for 6 years as Assistant Minister in the department. I was looking at G.P.s, making the system fairer for all. Do we make it free or for those who can pay? We are still working on that, or they are working on that, and worked very closely with Social Security Department. I worked on the Jersey Employment Trust for 5 years forcing the States to make the doors open for disabled people when I first went on there; I had to get people round a table. I scrutinised the introduction of income support and long-term care benefit, where both of our chosen advisers were asked by the Social Security Department to go in and introduce both of these benefits. The income support adviser declined because all of our recommendations, and his social justice, were ignored, but luckily Dr. Julien Forder, who was the long-term care adviser, went in and we do have good long-term care awaiting and to start collecting money in January. As I see it, there are 2 major problems that Social Security face, one of which is jobs. I was in the department on Wednesday. I asked about the 500 unemployed 16 to 24 year-olds; I wanted to know how prepared they were for the construction boom. You heard it from Deputy Andrew Lewis yesterday, they were taught to build a few bricks and knock them down again over a 2-week course. Absolutely mad. They gave me this JobFest document, and it is called Back to Work. It is in the Chief Minister’s ... it should be called “Ready for Work.” It tells you: “One-to-one mock interviews. Editing a professional C.V. (curriculum vitae). Opportunities in hospitality. Sell yourself in 500 words. Ace that interview. Health, confidence and success for life. Personal branding. All things you need.” Now, you tell me, why is this done actively seeking work? We did not hear it from Education. Why are these not going into schools for those between the ages of 13 and 16? You show me a child that is not engaging with education or training between those ages and I will show you a system that is failing and it is failing them. That is what we are doing. We have been told: “Education in Jersey is fantastic” and it was the outgoing Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - and he was outgoing at the States - who blew the lid off it. There are the kids who sit in the back of the class, they are not troublemakers; they sit in the back of the class and they are ignored. This is where you should be going. This is where you should be getting. You want these kids ready. Find out who they are and mentor them.

[11:15]

Do not tell me that at 13, 14, 15 ... they have always got something they are good at, and that needs to be encouraged. The next big thing, and I am going to show you some frightening figures here, is income support. Just remember these figures. There are only 1,000 people who rely on income support totally for their income, but income support sustains 6,552 households, 8,400 of these are adults, 3,500 children. So why are they reliant on income support? I will just read you the Minister for Social Security’s main concern 3 years ago when he made his speech: “I am particularly anxious to find a solution to the ever-growing cost of funding social and private rent subsidies.” So what did Housing do? They raised the bar to 90 per cent and put the rents up. A lot of people might not know the average cost of a social rented house is over £350 a week. I work near and I live near and know these people. Why are they taking £100 or £200 off income support to subsidise their rent? They are working, wife has probably got a part-time job. Because nobody looks at the bigger picture. Ask them: “Where is the carrot?” The best thing that Senator Ozouf ever did was the loans deposit scheme. Talk to these people. If they reach a certain level, Guernsey say to them: “You have got 3 or 4 years, pay the top rent, pay over” and they save it for their deposit. Well, there is a bit of blue-sky thinking there. They get them out of income support, they get them out of subsidy, they get the step on the ladder. Look at these figures: 1,000 of the people who are dependent on income support are under 25, so they do not even have a rent component. It is thousands ... £30 million this year in rent subsidies to the trust, private landlords and social. We are all celebrating the ex-Minister for Housing going to borrow a bond of £250 million so we can build. £30 million a year; it does not take a lot of adding up: that is over £300 million in 10 years, no interest. I am not saying all of these people would be able to buy their own home, but talk to them, get them in, show these people. You look at the page, it is so many children with one child, with 2 children paying for 3-bedrooms. They are all getting a massive subsidy. Do they all want to get a foot on the ladder? That, I am told, in Jersey is the biggest carrot you have got. So I would get these people in, I would talk to them. What have they done as well? What have they looked at, especially since income support? Children with a disability; you know who was here before, we know they got bunched into the income support, their families are fighting. If they do not get PC3 and now PC2, they are fighting for everything, they are fighting for respite. The form is not fit for purpose, it does not recognise certain disabilities, severe childhood illnesses for which they were getting money before when it was introduced and they do not get money now. No points, no prizes, no money, no respite, no special needs; just let the parents fight every department, and that is what they are doing. That is why they came to me and Deputy Southern, after they had been into Senator Routier, the champion of the disabled. S.N.A.P. (Special Needs Advisory Panel) used to come to us, and we brought the proposition to get PC2 through, and it was long overdue and it will be needed. But when I asked the question down at Social Security, I think the administration and taking advice is going to cost more than this £101 a week that these children are going to get. I want a root and branch into the offices down there. What most of them do is good. There are ways of looking at different things. Senator Ozouf asked Deputy Andrew Lewis how could he work with him as he had voted for the alternative choice; let us put it that way. It is really disgusting we have given an alternative choice. By the way ... I thought, as I said at the beginning, long and hard: “Do I take this on? Do I challenge?” Because if I lose it will be sour grapes, if I win I have got to work. Will I be a thorn in their sides? Yes, I will be a thorn in your side. [Approbation] Will I look at things differently? Yes, I will. Is that a bad thing? Do the public want yes men? The Deputy of St. Martin is a yes man; he went on radio and said it. The public do not want yes men. I am not a yes woman but I am prepared to work. He is laughing ... I thank Senator Bailhache for his absolute clarity of what his collective responsibility is. I could work with it. I may be resigned by January, but I will definitely work with it. [Laughter] [Approbation] Thank you so much.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Questions for Deputy Martin? Deputy Maçon.

2.2.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support: increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Very good question. I think increasing the social security cap has been persona non grata ... you must not look at it. I want to look at it. I want to look at everything. As I said in my speech, before you start increasing, how do you help these people? Carrots, social inclusion... do not say to someone: “You have got to take that job” and you are a zero-hours’ contract and they are worried how they are going to pay their rent or feed their kids. You have got to get them in. They are playing us. They are sitting there, they are claiming their bits of money, they are not breaking any laws. They play you because you will not help them. I agree, I want to look at everything. I have just said I am going to go right from the bottom to the top. Good officers in there. The forms need looking at and I want to ask questions.

2.2.2 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

I hope, if the candidate is elected, she will consider reconsidering her pre-emptive resignation announcement. Since income support has been introduced, when the switchover was made from Parish welfare, there has never been a full review into whether its implementation has been effective and whether it has done what it is meant to do. So, if elected, would the candidate pledge to make one of her first moves to instigate a review into income support to make sure that it is delivering effectively to the people that need it?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. As I said, I spent over 3 years, and 5 years before that, with the ex-Minister when he was head of Citizens Advice, looking at social security and looking at income support. It was rushed at the end and lots of benefits were put here and disincentives and lots of sticks, sticks, sticks: “Let us hit them with this stick and we will get them into work.” They are cleverer than us, they find their way past that stick, and the stick gets longer and the carrot has never been there. Of course I need to look at it. Would I reconsider my resignation? Of course I will reconsider it. What I will swear to this House and to the people out there, I will never compromise my principles, but I have never broken a confidence in the 6 years I have been at Health, and I have been round the Council of Ministers table, I have been on the oversight review for the hospital; never, ever, ever broke a confidence. Would I resign before ... I do not know what the debate is going to be. I said: “I can bring an alternative view.” I will look at the glass from the other end.

2.2.3 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

I know the Deputy is passionate about social security; I have worked with her on Scrutiny in this regard. She mentioned a root and branch review. Would that include communication to recipients of income support as to their entitlements? Because anecdotally I believe that many of them are not fully aware exactly what they are entitled to in many instances.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes. I think there are a lot of officers down at Social Security that could do with a good teaching in plain English. I have been sent how to claim for PC2. S.N.A.P. do not like it, I do not like it, and we have gone back to the officers and said: “This does not tell them what they can claim for.” Again, it is so fundamental - and the Constable knows - how they present a letter and then 5 days later or 3 days later another letter comes along: “Oh, we calculated this wrong.” Yes, it has to be root and branch. I am not frightened. The officers are working within the law; the law needs to be looked at, the whole thing needs to be looked at. I used to ask the ex-Minister: “Have you advertised the food subsidy instead of taking it off ...?” “Oh, well, people know about it.” No, they do not know about it. Yes, I agree with the Constable.

2.2.4 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

Does the candidate think the existence of food banks in the Island is an example of the income support system failing a lot of the poorest people in this Island?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I do not say that the benefits system is pitched wrong, I do not say the amounts are pitched wrong; what I do say is the people who are on the food banks, you will get 2 families, you will get 10 families, you will get 8 families who survive very well on what they are given and you will get others who do not. If they are having a problem, these are the families that should be spoken to. Now, were they already above their weight? Were they in a lot of debt and suddenly they lost their job? So they are not just having to survive on what they are getting, they are having massive, massive back-bills to pay. It is all statistics. I know the people, you need to talk to the people, you need to find out why, where their expenditure is, what they are paying out and why they cannot afford the food. I do not necessarily agree that they are not getting enough money from income support.

2.2.5 Senator P.M. Bailhache:

That was a wonderful presentation from the candidate, if I may say so, but does she really think that she can work collaboratively with a Council of Ministers whose views she does not share? Would she simply not be a vixen in the hen house? [Laughter]

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I am no vixen and I am certainly no hen [Laughter] and so this is how fundamentally wrong this slate is. The Senator knows what the views are of the other 9 or 10 and probably eleventh Ministry... sorry that is the twelfth Ministry they might have. Does he know my views? Has he ever sat on a committee with me? No. I am not there to challenge ... it has been a very sad week for me, it has been a very sad day yesterday. We had some excellent candidates who I know would do the job better but they are not on the slate, and they might look at something differently. Somebody said to me today: “You have got a Minister for Treasury and Resources whose officers he is going to rely on.” Scary, absolutely scary.

2.2.6 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I enjoyed sitting next to Deputy Martin as a Deputy when I first entered this House 15 years ago, but does she not accept that it is totally unfair to describe the Chief Minister’s slate of candidates as yes men and women? Does she not accept and would she not confirm that a Council of Ministers that arrives for a policy discussion in the morning is not a bunch of yes people, that an effective Council of Ministers has tense, difficult yes and no discussions throughout a debate, but it is at the end of the day that the Council needs to have a yes unified collective responsibility approach. It is dreadfully unfair, and will she withdraw the accusation that effectively the Ministerial slate are just simply nodding dogs? It is far from that.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Well, pardon me for quoting the Deputy of St. Martin; he went on radio when Deputy Southern accused this slate of being yes men and said he is totally a yes man, and you are all looking “yesly” in the right direction or the same direction. Yes; the Senator shakes his head: bunch of nodding dogs. Look at the voting records of the people who are on there. The Deputy of St. Martin and the now Minister for Education and resources absolutely stood up on the immigration policy and said it was rubbish and they could not support it; overnight, they both voted for it. Do not tell me about yes men and women: get your facts right, Senator.

2.2.7 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

How I wish Deputy Martin was standing for Chief Minister. [Laughter] The Jersey Conservative Party are really scared of her; it is quite clear. One of the biggest problems I have with constituents coming to me for help with Social Security is often related to the impairment component of income support where many of them find that they are assessed as purely a tick-box exercise. With her background as Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services, if elected, would she pledge to review whether this is an appropriate way of judging whether somebody should be eligible for the impairment component of income support? Does she accept that it is absolutely wrong that people with health problems are treated like that when everybody’s circumstance is different and people should be given the help based on their need and not what boxes they tick on an arbitrary form?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Thank you, Deputy, and I did mention that in my speech. At the very first hustings in Grouville, Senator Cameron ... or then she was standing for the post, said the impairment form is not fit for purpose.

[11:30]

I said it in my speech. I have got families whose children are born very, very ill. They do not tick the right boxes. They do not get the right money. Again, even talking to Senator Cameron, it applies at the other end of the scale. It needs to be looked at. It was pinched from some country. I think the U.K. has even got away from it. You will have that box, the officers looking at it saying: “Oh, it does not reach 7 points.” Some of these illnesses, we have one in 100,000, 2 in 100,000. The consultant that is telling them: “This child or this adult is seriously ill and needs help” they ignore, but they spend more and more on advisers to make it better and go to tribunals. Mad, absolutely mad.

2.2.8 The Connétable of St. Brelade:

We have been through some very difficult economic times. In terms of boosting more job opportunities, would the candidate be supportive of Social Security incentives to tempt employers, both new and existing, into taking on new staff, especially those small and medium-sized businesses?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, and that has already started. I do not want to stop any of that. I think it is fantastic. I want the kids more ready, not looking at back-to-workers, as I said in my speech. Why are we not - and I never even heard it from the new Minister for Education, Sport and Culture - advocating mentoring? Well, it must be right because I think he is bugging my room because he said exactly the same as I did at the hustings. Mr. Boleat said it yesterday. We need to have mentors. We need kids ready. My grandson, who is 3, can work my iPhone better than me, but he comes out of school knowing that because he is not taught anything. This coding… Deputy Wickenden knows all about it; millions of jobs across the E.U. (European Union). I think Deputy Lewis ... we can get lots of people, incentives for small employers. I have no problem with that. I am not against it, but we need to look at this as a whole. I will be on the back of Education. I want these kids taught. I want them ready for work, as it says, not at 16. Sell yourself in 500 words because when you go for any interview - this was taught to me very early on - what are you doing? You are selling yourself and if you cannot sell yourself you have no chance. Know your product. That is the company you are working for.

2.2.9 Senator L.J. Farnham:

I am pleased I am out of arm’s reach of the Deputy this morning. She must have had 3 shredded wheat, I think, for breakfast. Can I just ask the Deputy’s views on zero-hour contracts and, if successful, would she consider tightening the rules for their use?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Zero-hour contracts, I have friends who work in banking, health care, and they are fantastic for them and different things like that. Making someone leave the benefit system to go into something that might have 30 hours, might have 40, the following week you go into work: “Oh, it is raining” and you have ... and the Social Security Department is 3 weeks behind, so you still have to feed, pay the rent and clothe your children. It needs a good look at. I do not say they are completely wrong, but they cannot be abused. I am hearing there is abuse and that is what I do not like, so I would look at them. It certainly works for a lot of people. It is great, they pick their hours. It is not the boss who picks it; they pick. But when it is the other way round and there is abuse, no.

2.2.10 Deputy M.J. Norton:

I am within arm’s reach. The fear of many in small business is employing new people because of the very restrictive laws that are in place at the moment concerning the 26 weeks of unfair dismissal, which is much more than that in Guernsey and much more than that in the United Kingdom. Would the candidate give an assurance or at least comment on that 26 weeks and where she stands on that?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

This was brought up at the Chamber of Commerce before the election looking at economic growth. Is a small business that close to the wall that fair employment legislation is going to send it over the top? The Deputy says yes. Twenty-six weeks, is that right? I did say in my speech I would look at all legislation. If people come to me and say: “This is not working” ... there are some small firms who cannot indulge in what the Constable of St. Brelade wants because their turnover is not big enough. They are quite willing to take on an apprentice or someone to help them with works. One or 2-man-band electricians or plumbers, they cannot do it. It is wrong in both senses, but I have just quoted those figures: 8,000 people relying ... and then again, on the low-paid jobs, £60-something million in supplementation to make up their Social Security payments, so someone is making some money somewhere. Now, I do not know if it is not the small employers and they all have their backs right up against the wall and the 26 weeks is killing them. The Deputy is nodding, but I would have to find that one out. At the moment, the jury is out on that one, I think.

2.2.11 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

A nice question, I hope, for the Deputy: what is the candidate’s views on discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and does she agree that there is no place in Jersey society in any Ministry that she would be in charge of for any discrimination whatsoever on the grounds of sexual orientation?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

There is no discrimination on any grounds and in theory that is totally right. We just found out, what, 3 days ago in the U.K. every woman working the same job as a man is working for nothing from then to Christmas. So I hope the Senator practises what he preaches.

2.2.12 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The fact that this is very much a rubber-stamp exercise is illustrated by the fact that so many of our colleagues are in the other rooms having their tea without listening to the speakers, so they have already made up their minds. However, would the candidate please tell me from her own experience of going into Social Security with the problems that she has been dealing with on behalf of people the things that she would like to see changed or the approach changed?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

As I said, the officers that I deal with and up to the supervisor level are fantastic. They will meet me. I have to ask for a private room. I do not like the way that people’s business is discussed. Some of these have been proud people. They have been made redundant. The last time I was in Social Security was a lady that had been made redundant, mid-40s, early-50s, and she had spent all her redundancy money and they were on her to get the 35 hours. Now, she was working 30 and she had to turn jobs down because she could not ... no, she was working 25, and some were 5. When I went in with her, I said to them: “She would fulfil your criteria if she left the job she is in earning twice as much as the 30 hours on minimum wage, but took one of these jobs that she could walk into at 35 hours?” They said: “No, we do not want her to do that.” I said: “No, well, get off her back then.” Because this has to be a bit of common sense. If you are earning £13 an hour but you are not doing your 35 hours, you are not claiming much. So the answer is the form, like Deputy Mézec said, income support like the Constable of St. Lawrence said, how they are assessed, how people are told what benefits there are, and it is about finding out what they need right at the beginning and finding out what support they have. When you are pushing them into work, what other things do they really need to fulfil at the end of the day? I think with the bottom line always in view, as I say, you miss at your own peril. You do the same as the now elected Minister, keep doing the same, people will keep playing us. They will keep claiming their £30 million a year in rent subsidies. £30 million, over 8,000 people reliant on income support, over 7,500 of them working. You work it out.

2.2.13 Senator P.F. Routier:

The Minister for Social Security would be part of the Housing Advisory and Work Group considering applications for people to bring in new people into the Island. They make applications for when they say that there are no skills already in the Island. Can the candidate give an indication of how she would approach those sorts of decisions?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I have no problem and I think only ever once or even twice in the last 3 years agreed with Deputy Baker. He made a fantastic speech on immigration and he said, yes, if you need skills, bring them in, but at the same time do something positive. We have to now really look at who is wandering around. Who is wandering into this Island? Who is taking the low-paid jobs? You do not even have to be employed for 5 years. You could come over and look after your daughter’s children and after 5 years you get full income support. You cannot make it up.

2.2.14 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

The outgoing Treasury published 3 reports, the Long-Term Tax Policy, the Long-Term Fiscal Framework, and the Long-Term Revenue Plan. Could the candidate confirm that she has read all those documents and is there anything she disagrees with in them?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

No and yes. [Laughter]

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Could she say what it is?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

I am going to get cut off, I think. What are the thoughts of the candidate on raising the ...

The Deputy Bailiff:

Right, I ask Deputy Martin please to withdraw [Approbation] and invite Deputy Southern to return. Can I say that we are on the threshold for becoming inquorate? So I would invite, first of all, one Member not to leave the Chamber [Laughter] and, secondly, I would invite Members who are in the anteroom to return to the Chamber. Apart from anything else, it is a discourtesy to those who have put their names forward for Ministerial positions. [Approbation]

2.3 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Before I start, I would like to make it absolutely clear that I am not doing this in order to hear speeches and that we should discuss the issues and then move on. I definitely want this job. It is the third time I have applied for it. When thinking about what to do, I picked my favourite suit. Way back in 2002 I wore it and sat 4 places along on this bench. Back in 2002 - not the class of 2014, not the class of 2011, but 2002. From 2005 to 2011, I was heavily involved in Scrutiny, in creating Scrutiny and then in Scrutiny of Health and Social Services in 3 of those years, so I have experience in the field. This is likely to be my last session. I will probably go in 3½ years’ time and I want my legacy to be one that is more than: “He is the man who found the funding for the Millennium Town Park thanks to a ring-binder.” I want it to be more than: “He was a feisty defender of the rights of ordinary people and the poor and the vulnerable.” I want to be able to create something positive because I am a positive man. In order to do that I know that that is very much easier from a Ministerial position than it is from Scrutiny and certainly than it is from a Back Bench. Not that that has stopped me trying to influence things. If people look at the speech I circulated yesterday, which I may or may not stick to, they will see that 20 of the 48 amendments or propositions I have brought in the past 3 years have been directly the responsibility of Social Security, from anti-discrimination, which I have put back on the agenda, to zero hours, and we have an investigation into zero hours now thanks to my propositions.

[11:45]

Apart from that experience in 2005 and 2011, I am also the person most likely to be found in the Social Security Department or in Housing trying to sort out individuals’ problems. In fact, I shall be there this lunchtime. I have an appointment at 1.00 p.m. Straight after this, 12.45 p.m., I will be dashing down to Social Security to try and restore somebody who has just lost his income support despite the fact that he has just got a job on a zero-hours and minimum wage basis. So he has been successful and he has had all his money stopped and he says: “Why?” I shall be helping him out to do that. So I do know how the system works, both in theory from the policies to the practice and certainly from the receiving end. So what does a Minister need? A Minister should not attempt to be a manager. We pay a manager to manage the department and we pay them well often. What happens is if you try and manage the manager he is better at it than you. He will manage you and the department, and that is what often happens in departments. You should not try and be an expert. You do not know everything. Again, you have a whole team of researchers who can give you the facts. What should you have? The Minister brings the policy, the politics, to the debate. I believe I have a coherent political philosophy that I will bring to this department, one which will respect the most vulnerable and the poorest in our society and treat them fairly and with respect. The reality is that all the benefits that we administer are deferred earnings, whether they are contributory - your 6 per cent that you put away for the day you fall ill, for the day you get old, for the day you lose your job, that is the reality - or if they are not they are tax-based. While you have been working you have been paying tax and contributions so they are deferred earnings. Yet many people do not want to go and claim benefits. They feel it is somehow shameful, it is a mark of failure, and so they do not come forward. What is the biggest mistake we make in Social Security? It is underpayment, not overpayment. Look at the U.K. figures. The Department of Work and Pensions… I know it is a bigger scheme but nonetheless underpayments are far more common than overpayments. Total fraud and error - it is always fraud and error, not just fraud on its own - 0.7 per cent, a fraction of what happens. Yet what emphasis do we place? We chase around after fraud and not underpayment. That is the reality. When I first came across the department longer than 14 years ago, when I was a support worker for the homeless, there were 3 departments I dealt with in trying to assist the homeless: Housing, Welfare and Social Security. At the time, I would have said you got the best treatment, the clearest explanation, the kindest treatment, from Social Security. Unfortunately, over recent years that has not been automatically the case. In those days, what you had was some flexibility way back then, 20 years ago. If you went to your Constable on a Friday night with 2 kids to feed and nothing in your purse and nothing in the larder, you would get something to tide you over to Monday when you would be sorted. That does not happen with Social Security and one has to ask: the situation is the same. You turn up on their doorstep asking for some help but you will not get it. Now, that sort of flexibility ... you will get your question time, Ministers, you will get your question time. That sort of flexibility has gone from the system. Everything in Social Security is black and white, in law or regulation. What it has done is it has hamstrung the system. Not every person who comes ... and they all have problems. Some of them are in crisis. They need help. That is the reality of what Social Security does. Everyone who comes should be treated fairly, but not everyone is the right size peg for the holes that are available. Not everyone gets that safety net anymore. Now, that should not be happening. The absence of flexibility particularly I noticed towards the end of my predecessor - if I get it - the last Minister’s regime. We do have Ministerial flexibility, discretion. Towards the end, he was very, very loath to use it when I believe he could have saved substantial cases of hardship had he used it. But this moment is the most important, I think. These 3½ years will set the way forward for our benefit system for the coming at least 20 years because we cannot go on without some change. That change may be increased contributions. It may be adjusting the Health Insurance Fund. It is likely to be a new actuarial assessment of how the Fund is, how long it is going to last, but we need to make changes. Those changes must be carefully and considerately thought through, not just willy-nilly, and there is politics and philosophy involved in those decisions. What often happens is departments just go their own way. Policy is set years ago and it just continues. What you need is somebody there to strongly argue a case to say: “Let us have a look at where we are going. Let us have a look at how we get there. Let us find some alternatives and let us consult on them.” That is what I intend to be. We need to be strong to do that because often officers - and this is an officer-run department, very much so, always has been - need a strong challenge to be able to come to the right decision. When they do that, we can bring about consensus. That is what I am practised at from my work on Scrutiny, bringing consensus and agreement around the table to a way forward, costed properly, thought through properly. That is what we need. Thank you.

The Deputy Bailiff:

We now open for questions. Senator Farnham.

2.3.1 Senator L.J. Farnham:

The same question as I asked the other 2 candidates: what are the Deputy’s views on zero-hour contracts and does he think the rules relating to them need tightening?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

We have some 6,000 zero-hour contracts. That is 11 per cent of our workforce on zero-hour contracts. That is much higher than the U.K. where they are talking about 1.4 million, a tiny fraction - 2 per cent less - of their workforce on zero-hour contracts. Why? If those zero-hour contracts are a way round the Employment Law we must examine that. If they are an abuse of people’s contracts - and I believe we have evidence that they are - then they must be legislated for. If they are appropriate to a particular job, like bank nurses, like supply teachers, that is entirely appropriate, but wherever possible they should be minimum hours contracts so at least you are guaranteed, let us say, 20 hours a week or temporary contracts - you are employed for 3 months while we discuss if we need your job in 3 months’ time - but they should not in many cases ... and we must legislate, not just give code of good practice, because poor employers will always escape a code of good practice. The good ones will obey it. We must legislate.

Senator L.J. Farnham:

May I have a supplementary?

The Deputy Bailiff:

At the end, yes. Deputy Mézec.

2.3.2 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

The candidate will be well aware of the problems that many Islanders face when they find that the impairment component of their income support is cut because of the tick-box nature of the forms that need to be filled in. Does he agree that something has to drastically change there so that we have an income support system that is able to target people who are ill without it being based on simply what boxes they are able to tick and that it should be based on needs and not some arbitrary exercise?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

This is a major issue for me. I have been dealing with several cases of impairment and it seems to me that to get Level 3, which is the one that allows you to get attendants or carers taken care of, is almost impossible to get. I jokingly say - and it is not jokingly because it is serious - you have to be in your box and the undertaker has to be looking at where he is going to nail it down before you get Level 3. Yet these people have very, very high needs which are often not being met. In particular, in discussions between Social Security and the Scrutiny Panel talking about free access to G.P.s or lower cost access to G.P.s, that is one of the solutions that has been suggested by Social Security - and I think it is a good one - to say that those on impairment, difficult as it is to get on the right level of impairment, should receive free health care along with children under 5. Certainly, to my mind, that is an appropriate way forward as a starting point to say: “How do we get towards free or certainly less expensive G.P. access?” That is certainly a worthwhile initiative, worth exploring and I will explore it.

2.3.3 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

What are the candidate’s views on communication from the department to the public, both verbal and written? Does he consider that they should and could be improved?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Absolutely. I know they are ancient now, 2008 and 2011, 2 reports which led with communication problems. The fact is that the form you fill in is still 26 pages long. It is very difficult to fill in. You often need assistance with it. Letters come to you. They have been improved, thanks I think to our request to say: “Please simplify.” But they do not do the key thing, which is say: “Here is what you were getting. Here is what you are now getting.” Often I get people come to me: “I have this, I do not understand what has happened. What has happened?” You say: “Well, how much were you getting?” They say: “Oh, I cannot remember.” So they do not know whether they have had their benefit cut or not. In terms of communication, it is absolutely vital, if we are to make sure that we are not under-claiming, that people know and are aware of the benefits they are eligible for. One of the things that the second report did was get the income support calculator up on the website so people can use it and say: “Here are my earnings. Here is my rent. Am I due anything? Should I be claiming? Let us have a look at the sums.” You can do that now and that was one of the moves that we brought about through scrutiny. I think it is a very effective one.

2.3.4 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

There appears to be on the part of the Council of Ministers a desire to move the Health Insurance Fund to the Health Department because of the primary care sector. How does the candidate feel about the Health Insurance Fund being moved from Social Security to Health?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

That is interesting in that I was not aware it was proposed to move directly under the Health remit. When I was talking to the Chief Minister a week ago, we were talking about moving it to the Treasury Department and therein, while I am open-minded about it, there is a problem, I think. People are prepared to pay into their Health Insurance Fund because they know that they may well need that health insurance. It is after all there, it is what it is called, what it is: insurance. But they are not prepared to pay extra tax, general revenue. So the ring-fencing, which we have had problems with in the past, must be seen to be firm. So whether it goes to the Treasury, whether it goes to Health, both of those I am a bit suspicious about because will it be just part of general revenue? Will it get swallowed up? If people suspect that that is going to happen, then they are going to be reluctant to pay any increase to pay for the primary healthcare that we need. My starting point would be: what is wrong with keeping it separate in Social Security, who can guard it and can make sure it is ring fenced? People might be more content with that. I am open on that to discuss the pros and cons of each of the places for it, but ring-fencing is absolutely vital.

2.3.5 The Connétable of Grouville:

If the candidate is successful, will he accept the recommendations of the Employment Forum with regard to the minimum wage or will he try to implement alternatives as he has done in the past?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

As a Back-Bencher it is always difficult to get involved with a body as they are working. It is far easier as a Back-Bencher to take what they come out with and say: “I think you can tweak it a bit.”

[12:00]

I would be as Minister at the other end of the process. I will be trying to influence what was going on, if I could, in terms of facts and evidence - before the Chief Minister jumps down my throat - at the beginning end, at the starting point when you set the remit. I think trying to do it afterwards is very difficult and, while I have tried, I think I succeeded once. Then I also succeeded in stopping the youth rate, which would have taken the bottom out of our support for young people, instead of the apprenticeship training rate, which is what we got and are satisfied with. So I have had some success with that but not much. Far better to be involved in the process, if you like, from the beginning.

2.3.6 Deputy J.M. Maçon:

The retiring Minister expressed the need to increase Social Security funding. Which method does the candidate support, increasing the social security cap or increasing the base percentage, and why?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Both are alternatives but the fundamental starting point is we have to increase rates somehow. The fund will run out of money in X amount of years. I was quite content when talking to the Chief Minister last week that we start on a step-by-step approach and he was suggesting we start with the Health Insurance Fund. That needs some urgent work on it because we have primary health care to pay for as of now. That is going to run out in a very short timescale. It has £80 million left in it. It will not take long to wear that away. However, there is an actuarial review coming up, the next one on a 3-year basis, which will address, I hope, a variety of ways in which we could change the contribution basis and make it more sustainable so that it works. At this stage, while I have a political policy on that that is perfectly possible to increase at the top end and that would be my preference, I am certainly waiting to hear the actuarial evidence and the suggestions that come forward of: “We can do it this way, we can do it this way, we can do it a combination of this way and this way” but something must happen. These are vital decisions to make and they will set the route for the 21st century, effectively.

2.3.7 Senator P.M. Bailhache:

The candidate spoke of consensus, but he must know, given the strong views that he has expressed, that it would be quite impossible for him to work collaboratively with the Council of Ministers and that he would be nothing but a fox in the henhouse. [Laughter] Would he not agree that his function would be far better performed by challenging government policy on the floor of this Chamber as he has done very successfully in the past?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

There are some people who will bar the way into the tent come what may. I think we have just heard from one Member who would like to attempt to do that anyway. The reality is, as I started from, I have had long experience on Scrutiny. The way I ran Scrutiny was that as we were coming up to a decision deciding on policy, on recommendations, on what our paper was going to look like, we went through it, if necessary, time and time again. Is what we are saying backed up by the evidence? Can we justify this form of words? People who have worked with me will know that is what I do. Anyone with the slightest reservation: “I am not sure about that. I am not sure I can push that right through. Is that really supportive?” we change it. We get that consensus and then go forward solid. Now, if somebody is telling me - if this questioner is telling me - that the Council of Ministers works differently, then I would be most surprised. I would be quite shocked if before we decided that we had collective responsibility on something we did not find the formal words that everybody round the table could agree and was perfectly content with. Now, that is what I would expect. In talking about - yes, because I have some deeply held views and I have a politics… - the problem of collective responsibility with the Chief Minister, he said: “Simply list your long-held views, your long-held positions. From time to time you may well come across that one of those long-held positions is not that of the Council of Ministers and you may have to resign.” That is dealable with. I am not impossible to work with by any means whatsoever. In fact, I am one of the most co-operative people behind the scenes that you are likely to meet.

2.3.8 Deputy M. Tadier:

Fantastic Mr. Fox in with the bunch of chickens is perhaps a more appropriate expression. Does the Deputy agree that although he is known for resisting cuts, there are key savings to be made in Social Security and for the taxpayer if we had a living wage rather than a minimum wage and if we reduce the amount of income support that goes to subsidising in some cases wealthy landlords?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Yes, I am very concerned about the level of support that we put into basically the lower end of our economy. If one examines, for example, a single individual on the minimum wage in a one-bedroom flat, they will earn about £250 a week. They will pay contributions on that and they will apply for income support and receive something of the order of between £130 and £140 a week. The cost of that job on the minimum wage in its cheapest form - this is one single person and a one-bed flat - adds up to £7,000 plus supplementation to make up his contributions, £9,000 a year. £9,000 a year subsidised from the taxpayer to keep that person in low-wage work. Is that a way to run an economy? I do not think it is. If the minimum wage were to rise - and it must eventually - we are committed as a Chamber to following a proposition I brought to the House of increasing the minimum wage from 40 per cent of the average wage to 45 per cent over a period of 5 to 15 years and the clock is ticking because we have hit 5, I think. Then if we were to do that, we would save taxpayer money by the bucket. So in terms of making the economy work, making our tax revenues work, that is one of the ways forward. In terms of the living wage, obviously that has just gone up on the mainland to £7.85 an hour and £9.15 in London. We have costs of living which are comparable, I believe, with London. We have a report coming out saying if we were to adopt a minimum wage what would its impact be, what would its cost/benefit be, what level might it be set at; again, something I brought but which needs attention and certainly needs acting on one way or another in consultation, obviously, with the business community, et cetera. A living wage on a voluntary basis is another stage. I would certainly be keen on promoting that in consultation with all stakeholders.

2.3.9 Senator P.F. Routier:

I hope the candidate will feel able to withdraw his outrageous comments he made about the capabilities of people with disabilities who are receiving Level 3 components. My question to him is: the Minister for Social Security is a member of the Housing Advisory and Work Group considering the applications for work licences for people to come to the Island. Could he explain his approach to dealing with those applications?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

First of all, I will make no apology for saying that it is extremely difficult for seriously ill people to prove that they are seriously impaired to get Level 3 awards in the current system. It is a massive form, tick box. It often does not appropriately respond to the person’s condition. So I will take nothing back on that. It is very difficult and you have to be seriously very, very ill and provably ill and incapable of doing certain actions to get that. In terms of Control of Housing and Work ...

Senator P.F. Routier:

Would he withdraw the comment about being in a coffin?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Can I raise a point of order? What the Senator said before, and I am loath to do this, he has misled the House and the listening public by suggesting that the Deputy has said something which he did not. He never made any comment about disabled people and I think the Senator is clearly just mischief making, as we all know.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

All right, if the Senator could have interpreted my words that I was being derogatory about the capacities of disabled people, then I will withdraw that. Certainly, that was not my intention, as I believe the Senator understands anyway. In terms of the Control of Housing and Work Law, then I believe that what is happening is that in principle we are making some sound decisions in terms of reducing the number of registered workers that we can employ but that, in fact, there is a lack of resource given to the policing. A law can only work as well as the attention you give it in terms of making sure that it works, what is happening on the ground. Now, I hear that in many cases people are using their licences, calling them trainee posts - which means you get a trainee at a cheaper rate than the fully-blown one - and instead of using those licences for a trainee post - which obviously looks good in theory - for people leaving our schools, the 18 year-olds and graduates onwards, they are giving them to people who have been on the Island for less than 5 years. They say: “Right, it is a licensed post. We will employ you. We will not employ the school leaver.” Now, that has to be policed. It has to be caught and it has to be stopped. I am not saying it is every employer at all, but some employers are doing that. They are finding ways round the law. You have to police it properly.

2.3.10 Deputy M.J. Norton:

I will be very, very quick. Unemployment Law at the moment states 26 weeks for unfair dismissal, which is restricting the amount of employers offering jobs. Would the candidate agree that this is too restrictive given that it is much more restrictive than Guernsey and the U.K.?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

I am very interested in the Member’s take on that particular period of time. It is not one I agree with, but I am prepared to examine that as a first stage.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Thank you, Deputy. I will ask Deputy Pinel and Deputy Martin and all other Members who wish to vote to return to the Chamber.

Senator L.J. Farnham:

I just want to say in the interests of time there are 3 candidates and 3 buttons.

The Deputy Bailiff:

I am just going to give some instructions. Because there are 3 candidates, ballot papers are now going to be passed out. That is ballot papers and not Members, I hasten to add. You will see that there is a place for you to write your name at the top and the candidate for whom you wish to vote at the bottom. Please make sure that you put the right name in the right box and would you also please note, therefore, Deputy Pinel, Deputy Martin and Deputy Southern, that you have to write down your name twice if you are going to vote for yourself. Ballot papers are now going to be distributed. The Greffier reminds me, Senator Farnham, that the reason we do not use the buttons is that some Members may wish to abstain and not vote at all.

Senator L.J. Farnham:

With 3 such good candidates I did not think anybody would dare to abstain.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Well, that is right.

[12:15]

The Deputy Bailiff:

Very well, if we could now collect the votes, please. Have all Members had the opportunity of casting their votes? Then I shall ask the Deputy Viscount and the Attorney General and the Assistant Greffier to withdraw. The counting is going to be done by the Deputy Viscount and the Attorney General, and the Assistant Greffier is there to make sure that Members’ votes are recorded as it is now an open ballot. While the counting is being carried out, I draw Members’ attention to the fact we now have the Minister for Housing election to come up. Rumour has it that it will be a contested election. If that is true, then it will take about an hour. It does seem to me that it would be very undesirable to break halfway through that process, so that either means adjourning now and perhaps starting earlier this afternoon or continuing until 1.15 p.m. or 1.30 p.m. Now, can I just have a proposition from somebody and we can decide what we are going to do?

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED

Senator I.J. Gorst:

I would propose that we adjourn once we know the vote on the Minister for Social Security and return early because I believe that there are at least 2 other candidates as well as my nominee. So we would not be finishing perhaps quite as early as you indicated. I propose, unless it is going to take a long time to count the vote, that we return at 1.30 p.m.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Do Members agree to return at 1.30 p.m.? Very well. What we will do now then is move to Housing and just take the nominations.

3. The Minister for Housing

Senator I.J. Gorst:

For the position of Minister for Housing I propose the Deputy of Trinity.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

Could I propose Deputy Tadier?

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

Yes, I propose Deputy Le Fondré.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? Very well, then we have those 3 candidates and we will start at 1.30 p.m. The Deputy of Trinity will go first. The results of the voting have just been passed to me. Deputy Pinel received 33 votes; Deputy Martin received 11 votes; Deputy Southern received 4 votes, and there were no spoilt papers. [Approbation] [INSERT VOTE TABLE]

Deputy S. J. Pinel: 33	Deputy J. A. Martin: 11	Deputy G. P. Southern: 4
Senator P.F. Routier	Connétable of St. Helier	Deputy G.P. Southern (H)
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf	Connétable of St. Saviour	Deputy M. Tadier (B)
Senator A.J.H. Maclean	Deputy J.A. Martin (H)	Deputy M.R. Higgins (H)
Senator I.J. Gorst	Deputy of Grouville	Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)
Senator L.J. Farnham	Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré
Senator P.M. Bailhache	Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)
Senator A.K.F. Green	Deputy of St. John
Senator Z.A. Cameron	Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)
Connétable of St. Clement	Deputy L.M.C. Doublet (S)
Connétable of St. Peter	Deputy R. Labey (H)
Connétable of St. Lawrence	Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
Connétable of St. Mary
Connétable of St. Ouen
Connétable of St. Brelade
Connétable of St. Martin
Connétable of Grouville
Connétable of St. John
Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)
Deputy A.E. Pryke (T)
Deputy E.J. Noel (L)
Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)
Deputy of St. Martin
Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
Deputy of St. Peter
Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)
Deputy of St. Ouen
Deputy S.M. Wickenden (H)
Deputy S.M. Brée (C)
Deputy M.J. Norton (B)
Deputy of St. Mary
Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)
Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)

The Deputy Bailiff:

Therefore, I declare that Deputy Pinel has been elected as the Minister for Social Security. The States will now stand adjourned until ... sorry.

Deputy S. Pinel:

May I thank Deputies Martin and Southern for their challenges and say how much I am looking forward to working with the Council of Ministers and especially the outstanding staff that we have at Social Security? Thank you. [Approbation]

Deputy J.A. Martin:

It would be very churlish of me if I did not congratulate Deputy Pinel and wish her every success in this Council of Ministers. Shall I speak for Deputy Southern as well because he is not here? Thank you.

Deputy M. Tadier:

I think certainly on behalf of Reform Jersey the same goes. [Laughter] That is the benefit of having an official party.

The Deputy Bailiff:

Very well, the States now stand adjourned until 1.30 p.m.

[12:29]

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT

[13:30]

The Bailiff:

We come next to the proposition for Minister for Housing and we have had 3 nominations so I will ask Deputy Tadier and Deputy Le Fondré to withdraw.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

As a point of procedure, is the Chair aware that this morning there was an officer from the Housing Department sat outside there at the request, he said, of the Chief Minister in order to attend while the Housing election went on? Certainly he said it was to assist Deputy Pryke and I believe that was an improper process and an improper use of an officer’s time.

Senator I.J. Gorst:

Yes, I am happy to respond. I did request that officer to come down to pick up a paper for me. Officers, as well as myself, a number of candidates that I was not even proposing, have said in their comments that they have met with me and they have met with officers, and officers support all candidates during this particular process. The individual was not requested to come and sit in the Assembly and support a specific candidate. They were requested by me to come and pick up a piece of paper.

Deputy M. Tadier:

I suspect the Chief Minister may be inadvertently misleading the House. The officer, who I know, said that he was attending outside and he had been asked at the request of the Chief Minister to assist the Deputy of Trinity with any queries that she might have. I do not think he is there any more so maybe he has been asked to leave.

The Bailiff:

Well the position is that the Housing officer, if he is there, can assist any Member but he certainly is not and should not be here to assist one particular candidate.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Is that something that all candidates for a Ministerial position in future will be able to request assistance from the department they are wishing to bid for? Is that appropriate?

Senator I.J. Gorst:

Perhaps I could again help to clarify. Many candidates, including some of those that I have nominated, have met with departments and I would have expected every single candidate to have met with the department to understand what the issues facing the department were with regard to standing for the position that they were going to do so.

Deputy M. Tadier:

This is irrelevant. Of course we ...

The Bailiff:

This is absolutely relevant. I cannot think why we are spending time on it. The person is apparently no longer here and the candidates are free to go and speak to officers to find out about it but officers are not going to be asked to come down here to stand outside to help candidates during the election, so I think the position is clear. [Interruption] Well I have just said what I have said, Deputy. Now, Deputy Tadier and Deputy Le Fondré, would you please withdraw? Yes, I invite then the Deputy of Trinity to address the Assembly for up to 10 minutes.

3.1 Deputy A.E. Pryke of Trinity:

I feel a little like Johnny No Mates here. Over the last 9 years I have had the privilege to have served the people of Jersey. Firstly, I was on the Education, Home Affairs, Social Security, Health and Social Services, Housing Scrutiny Panel. In those initial days of Scrutiny this comprised of one panel and it was busy. I was then appointed as Assistant Minister for Planning and Environment for 2½ years with the responsibility of taking out for consultation with Deputy Hilton a proposition for this Assembly to rezone 8 sites specifically for over-55s and first-time buyers. All were approved, I am pleased to say, and have homes built on them today. Finally, as Minister for Health and Social Services for just under 6 years, I wanted then, as I still do today, to make a difference to people’s lives. I believe I achieved that over the last years, especially as Minister for Health and Social Services. At that time I inherited probably the most difficult portfolio but with teamwork have achieved a great deal, decisions have been made and policies put in place, not always popular, but always with the best interest of the Island at heart. New challenges, new approach, and I hope that using my skills gained over the last 9 years I can continue to serve the people of our Island with my previous experience, well-qualified for the job. That is why I am seeking the vote as Minister for Housing. In the last Council of Ministers’ Strategic Plan there was a clear aim to adequately house the population. This Assembly approved the establishment of a new Strategic Housing Unit which quite rightly sits in the heart of government in the Chief Minister’s Department alongside the delivery of social policy. To me they are intertwined as we are talking about improving people’s lives, caring for families in need and that does include their housing. The overall purpose of the new unit is to set strategic policies for affordable housing across the Island which does include different housing tenures. The challenge to adequately house people continues with a new focus to improve the supply of housing for all Islanders, whether in the private or public sector, and to ensure that all homes meet the decent homes standard within 10 years. To protect the most vulnerable in our society we need to strive for this within a specified timeframe. The previous Minister for Housing brought to this Assembly a major change in direction for the Strategic Housing Unit, to separate the strategic issues from a landlord function and, importantly, to champion supply of housing for all Islanders. But that is not all. A new housing strategy will be completed by the spring of next year. This all-important strategy will include, but not be limited to, schemes working on homes to bring them all up to a decent standard, schemes to support first-time buyers. There are still major challenges facing Housing today but there are also a lot of opportunities due to our size, history and governance, to name but a few. This would also include the high cost of renting and buying property, the overall objective of the strategy being that all Islanders are adequately housed. This is not only my aim but needs to be the next Council of Ministers’ aim and this Assembly’s. My main priorities would be improving standards across all sectors. Much has been said about care in the community and the ageing population so we must ensure that the care given is right, is appropriate but also that homes people are living in are warm, clean, meet health and safety standards and meet the needs of those who are disabled. Most of us would take this for granted but sadly this is not always the case. Affordability: I would like to see more home ownership, especially for young families who, without our support, will never be able to afford to purchase a house. Last year a deposit loan scheme was put in place. This enabled 50 families who would not otherwise have had the opportunity to move into home ownership. What an achievement for them. I would like to work with the Chief Minister and the Minister for Treasury and Resources to have a similar scheme. We would need to look at where it worked well, parts that we could do better, so that more families are able to own their own homes. I would like the Strategic Housing Unit to develop more affordable housing products such as the shared equity schemes to assist with the purchase of affordable housing similar to the very successful one in Trinity where 39 young families, when the second phase is completed, would have bought their own homes for life and it be an important part of the Parish life. It can even be said that with Trinity’s forward thinking in the 24 over-55s housing and the first-time buyers that we were and are a little mini housing unit. People said shared equity was not possible. Well, in Trinity we delivered it. With a £250 million bond we must use the monies for investment in affordable homes for Islanders effectively and wisely. We need to ensure governance with this money, both by Treasury and by Housing. Another priority is supply and delivery of homes. A great deal of work has been done on understanding demand. We know that we need approximately 3,500 homes by 2020 of which over 1,000 are to be affordable. In the Island Plan approved by this Assembly, sites were identified for rezoning which will go, along with the sites already approved, to meet the needs. But now the most difficult job of all is to get on and deliver. That will be the hardest job but I believe by working with all parties, with the Constables - especially with the Connétable of St. Helier - and States Members, together with the Housing Trust and Andium Homes, we can deliver and make a real difference to people’s lives but we need to get on and do it. Over the last 6 years I have shown I can deliver and I can make a difference. If successful, I look forward to working as a part of a team in the Chief Minister’s Department where the emphasis will be on improving lives for everybody. Housing plays an important role in this vision and above all working with everyone to deliver the most-wanted homes. The Minister for Housing with dedicated responsibility to raise standards, social housing providers are regulated but, above all, all homes must be delivered and this is what I am going to do. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff:

Very well, we now have up to 20 minutes for questions to the Deputy of Trinity. Senator Green.

3.1.1 Senator A.K.F. Green:

The candidate mentioned regulation. I just would like her to confirm whether or not she would continue the work of regulation of social housing providers and in particular appoint an independent regulator and if not, why not?

The Deputy of Trinity:

Yes, regulation is important. I know in the Scrutiny Panel report they suggested a light touch and to work with the housing trusts but at the end of the day we do need regulation. I fully understand the importance of regulation, having brought Regulation of Care Law to this Assembly in the summer. It is important, not only for those providing houses, but more importantly for the tenants so they will know exactly what to expect and how to expect it. I know Scrutiny suggested that it could be done using Guernsey or the Isle of Man, but I think it is also stressed it needs to be an independent regulator and working with the trust I will take that forward.

[13:45]

3.1.2 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I am happy to give way to other Members but I do not see their lights going on. The current Minister for Health and Social Services, she still is, will be aware of Housing 21 which was one of the largest housing providers in the U.K. which also provides domiciliary care and has also got a successful model in Guernsey. Would Housing 21 feature in her list of potential providers and models of care, particularly for those over 55 needing care needs at home?

The Deputy of Trinity:

Housing 21 is very interesting. It is not only Housing 21 but there is the Joseph Rowntree scheme as well. When Deputy Hilton and I were taking the rezoning to the over-55s we made a point of going up to York to see the Joseph Rowntree which is based on a similar proviso with Housing 21 and a very good scheme where people can buy their own houses or rent their own houses but also a part of a community and a nursing home attached to that. This is what I would have liked to have seen at the St. Saviour’s site but for one reason or other it did not materialise. But, yes, working with Housing 21 or any other similar bodies is a good way forward and I would very much welcome that.

3.1.3 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Following on from the housing transformation proposals, when does the candidate anticipate to start to bring down the current 800-plus waiting list for social rental housing and what part does she see overall in social rental housing as a proportion of total housing into the future?

The Deputy of Trinity:

Bringing down the waiting list is important. As I understand, I think, there are approximately 800 people on the waiting list but again it is down to supply. We need to get on, we have had these sites rezoned, there are more sites in town that we should be looking at too, and we need to get on with the new Minister for Infrastructure and the Constables to bring this down. I would like to bring it down as soon as I can but there is no magic wand because we need to go out to Planning, it needs to be built. I think that is why the criteria on the waiting list is too narrow.

3.1.4 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Sorry to press the candidate, but having spoken to the previous head of Housing, does she have any targets and what timescale does she expect in which to meet those targets to attempt to solve this chronic problem?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I cannot say: “By year one we will have this and by year 2 we will have that.” I am not in a position to be able to do that but I know Ann Court will be coming online fairly soon and that is one thing that I really want to be able to sink my teeth into and make sure that we get the right development for social housing because that is one of the important ones, along with affordable housing. But timescales, I am not in a position to give him year one, year 2 or whatever.

3.1.5 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

The candidate, I believe, will be involved with population as part of the population thing. When she was the Minister for Health and Social Services she would never tell us, for example, what size the hospital population was based on. If she is scrutinising population, is she going to be restricting population or does she believe that the population for the Island needs to increase and if so, by what amount?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I can give him an answer to the hospital one; I do not know if it is appropriate but nevertheless I shall. The population was used on the current Census plus the 3 to 5 or the 150 heads of household. [Approbation] But more importantly with the hospital, the problems in the hospital are caused by the ageing population because we are getting older and the ageing population will need more care. I will finish that there. Yes, I will be part of the headwork and I really look forward to it. We have an interim policy in place which was approved by the States. I think we will always need some sort of inward migration and our population will always rise because our births are more than our deaths.

3.1.6 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

A supplementary, will the candidate give us an indication of what population she thinks there will be in 10 years’ time or 20 years’ time? The Council of Ministers have figures; as the Minister for Health and Social Services she was involved in those discussions. Please share those figures with the rest of the Assembly and the people please.

The Deputy of Trinity:

I do not have all those figures at my fingertips and I am surprised that the Deputy would think I have all those figures at my fingertips. It is an interim policy in place and I know work is being done with the future of a more sustainable population policy going forward of which the Deputy, I am sure, will be part of.

3.1.7 Connétable M.J. Paddock of St. Ouen:

I am pleased to hear the candidate wishes to deal with the need for first-time buyer houses. I would be interested to know how the candidate feels about building in the green zone to supply some of these homes such as the recent development in Trinity.

The Deputy of Trinity:

Yes, the rezoning at that time, we took 3 sites, we went out to consultation and we achieved a very good scheme. It was what the Parish wanted and needed at that time. I am very keen to work with the Parishes. I know with the Island Plan that they had to come up with the village plan which I think is a very good idea. I know that this House and this Island does not want to rezone any more green fields and we have to take that into account. So we must use what we have effectively but I am happy to work with the Constables because I know that the Constable of St. Ouen has got a field which he is very interested for first-time buyers or lifelong homes, I would like to think, and that needs to be looked at and taken further.

The Bailiff:

Do you wish a supplementary, Connétable? Deputy Mézec.

3.1.8 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

The previous Assembly voted to investigate the introduction of minimum housing standards and creating a landlord registry. Does the candidate think that signing-up to that registry should be voluntary or compulsory for landlords to rent out properties?

The Deputy of Trinity:

With the Housing Dwelling Law as well I think it does need to be compulsory but I know that is going to be quite difficult and quite a challenge but the most important thing is to go out to consultation, hear what the landlords have to say and take it from there. What I want to do at the end of the day is improve decent standards of homes. There are some good landlords and there are not quite so good landlords and if you are a good landlord you would meet the decent home standard. Like everything else, it is those landlords who are not quite as good that need to improve their standards.

The Bailiff:

Deputy Mézec, have you just asked a question? I am so sorry. [Interruption] It is going to be a long afternoon. [Laughter] The Deputy of St. John.

3.1.9 The Deputy of St. John:

My question is along similar lines. In the candidate’s previous role, she had responsibility for Environmental Health: could she state what her views are of a Jersey decent home standard, particularly with regards to Andium Homes, and how she would ensure that rental was not charged at 90 per cent of market unless those properties met those standards?

The Deputy of Trinity:

Yes, the Housing Dwelling Law went out from Environmental Health to consultation and unfortunately it was interpreted quite badly by the press because behind that there was some very, very good laws to improve exactly what we all want, to improve decent home standards, and it is a shame. So it did not go back to square one; they have relooked at it and I will be working with the new Minister for Health and Social Services to bring that forward. Everyone needs to increase the standards where it is appropriate and I know that Andium had quite a lot of funding to improve their stock where perhaps it did not quite meet... That plan to improve their stock needs to continue and I know the previous Minister used to wax lyrical about all the improvements that were beginning to happen across the housing stock. That needs to continue and I am sure it will continue because the most important thing is to improve the standards for everyone because at the end of the day it is the tenants that are most important.

3.1.10 The Deputy of St. John:

A supplementary, could the candidate therefore just explain what her views are of a Jersey decent home standard?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I think I have done that. I think it is a good way forward. We need to have a level playing field that everyone can aspire to and everybody knows what a decent home standard is.

3.1.11 Connétable M.P.S. Le Troquer of St. Martin:

The candidate has spoken of her support for the Parishes after the success in Trinity. Looking at the projects in the Parish of St. Martin, does the candidate believe that homes should be crammed into rezoned sites or should new homes also be made attractive to the point where people want to remain in them and will she work closely with the new Minister for Planning and Environment in this case?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I am a team player and I will work closely with anyone that will achieve the aims that we all set and that definitely does include the next Minister for Planning and Environment, the Minister for Treasury and Resources, as well as the Minister for Infrastructure. It is how the design is. I think within Trinity, wherever the site is, you need to use maximum density but it has to be done in a way that amenity space is important and all those issues, to make sure that it is right and there is a way around to doing it.

3.1.12 The Connétable of St. Helier:

In her speech the candidate referred to especially St. Helier taking the majority of social housing units and while I do not disagree with that, there are lots of good reasons, particularly sustainability reasons, for why that should be the case. Will she pledge to look very circumspectly at plans for the Jersey Gas site which look to me like town-cramming? Will she give serious consideration to the petition that is shortly to be discussed by the States that suggests that the site next to the town park would be better used for open space and visitor parking?

The Deputy of Trinity:

Yes, I think regeneration of St. Helier is important because that is where, at the end of the day, most of the housing units are going to be sited because we know that the people of Jersey do not want green fields rezoned and so therefore we need to make sure it is right for St. Helier. Also I think there is a great potential because the north of town and – with no disrespect to the Constable - has been neglected for too long. When I was at Planning I think the Minister then at the time started a review of the North of Town Masterplan and the ideas that came out about more amenity space, even things like more trees which is simple and does not cost that much but it can have a great emphasis on improving. As regarding the Gas Works site, yes, I have not seen those plans but what I have been told, yes, it does need to be reviewed and I would like to think that it will be done. Also you need to listen to the voice of the people, of the residents around there because at the end of the day they have to live with it.

3.1.13 Senator Z.A. Cameron:

Would the candidate like to say what is a reasonable timescale for a lift repair at somewhere like, for instance, Le Marais, if it breaks down?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I would like to think as soon as possible, Senator Cameron. As we are on lifts, I think that is going back to the Deputy of St. John’s decent homes. When I was at Hospice Care, the block of flats in Val Plaisant, Caesarea Court, if someone needed to be taken out of their home and into hospital, there was not room to put a stretcher in that lift and in this day and age that is just not acceptable. So therefore what we need to build, we need to make sure that it is, not only decent homes, but the amenity space around it is right for this day and age. I would like to think lifts were repaired as soon as somebody lets the Housing Trust or Andium or whoever know because that is the most important thing. They cannot mend it until they know it is broken.

[14:00]

3.1.14 Senator Z.A. Cameron:

Just a supplementary on to that, will there be any audit of repairs in the future?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I would like to think that the Housing Trust and Andium are doing that anyhow. I would expect that at least.

3.1.15 Deputy S.M. Wickenden of St. Helier:

I would like to ask the candidate when looking at social housing in St. Helier that she would commit to work with the Minister for Transport and Technical Services to make sure that a proper traffic flow management consultation had been done around any area where the housing would go.

The Deputy of Trinity:

Yes, as I said, I am very much a team player and I would work with anybody who is appropriate, not only the new Ministers for Infrastructure and obviously Planning and Environment, but also with the States Members who live in that district because they represent their residents and we need to improve some sort of transport around St. Helier. St. Helier I think has a great opportunity to improve and be a very exciting place to live in.

3.1.16 Deputy G.P. Southern:

We are told by the Statistics Department that if the interim population targets remain in place we will need an extra 4,000 units of accommodation by 2023. Where would she propose to put these?

The Deputy of Trinity:

I think some people think that I have a crystal ball. The most important thing is the interim policy is in place. It is working at this moment in time, there has been and will be in the future a lot of work done in the next policy so we know that we can deliver 3,700-odd properties before the end of 2020 and there are, as I said before, 800 people on the waiting list. There are some sites that we need to build and we need to get on and do it.

3.1.17 Deputy G.P. Southern:

I remind the candidate that this is additional units of accommodation, in addition to that which is already planned. Just to put that in perspective, this is effectively one Maufant estate or 50 to 60 Le Marais high-rise flats. Again, can I ask her, is she content that the population targets remain as they are or will she, as the Minister most directly affected, be lobbying for lower targets?

The Deputy of Trinity:

As I have said a couple of times, it is an interim policy in place. The H.A.W.A.G. (Housing and Working Advisory Group) are working effectively and the numbers have been reduced but it is not only just down to me. As we have said in this Assembly before, we need to be sure that education skills, and the new Minister for Education, Sport and Culture did mention that, to improve the skills so we do not need to bring so many people in. But we will always need to have some inward migration because, as you know, we will need always to bring some nurses in, some doctors in, and our population is going to grow because we are an ageing population and our number of births exceeds the number of deaths.

The Bailiff:

Very well, that completes questions to the Deputy of Trinity so I will ask her to withdraw and ask that Deputy Tadier come into the Chamber. Very well, Deputy Tadier, when you are ready.

3.2 Deputy M. Tadier:

I will just start my timer if that is okay so that I do not go over or under. There is only a bell at 9 minutes and that is the trouble if you have given only half your speech at 9 minutes it is not good. I thank people for their indulgence. It really focuses the mind at the beginning of a new term and a new Assembly about why one goes into politics. Some of us here will be first-time elected Members, others of us have perhaps slightly longer serving, although hopefully not jaded. The reason I went into politics, which is probably similar to other people, is to make life better for the community and residents and to make life simpler and that is a key issue when it comes to housing. I think it can be crystallised into 2 main issues: the problem of affordability of housing, whether that be in the buying or rental sector, and the quality of housing. So really this speech focuses on the one hand: how do we improve standards in our housing across the Island, particularly in rental sectors, and how do we make it more affordable? I think those are 2 things which hopefully we all can agree on. I have grave concerns about what I have been hearing, particularly the absence of a clear route when it comes to the Housing regulator. There has been a suggestion that the role of Minister for Housing is not really a full role any more, it is a diminished role, it is something that will be phased-out but I think it is an important role nonetheless for 2 reasons. First of all, it will be necessary to manage the transition to Andium and to a fully-incorporated sector with the regulator. That is the key part; that still needs to be done. Secondly, we need to bring in minimum standards across the board. That is something I know the former Minister for Housing agrees with, it is something that I have agreed with and it is something that we have worked on together with his officers and that the Assembly has already endorsed in the last year. So I am pleased to have been able to work with the Minister in that regard and build consensus across the Assembly, so I do bring some experience in those terms. But also practically a great deal of my constituency work, not just in St. Brelade No. 2 but across the Island, has been directly with the Housing Department, now Andium; that is because there are ongoing issues in the Island. Let us look at some of those issues; not my words but the words of the officer now in the Chief Minister’s Department. He said in response to a question I have asked is that the Environmental Health Department receive hundreds of complaints every year about the condition of properties. They are not necessarily all rental but a large proportion of that figure are. It is also estimated that they will receive between now and the end of March, 2 to 3 complaints a week about cold and damp problems because of the cold weather and they would be issuing a similar number of notices. But there is an issue because... well, let us finish this. Once the minimum legislation has come into effect he believes that this number will go up and there will be stronger powers available for the Minister to enforce sanctions against landlords. Well that really remains to be seen but there is at least the commitment seemingly that we will have minimum standards. It is not an “if” so much as a “when” and it is very much something that I would like to see through in the role of Minister for Housing. It is something that I started, it is something that I would like to finish off. So I believe there is a need for proper regulation but I have some concerns because, first of all, the Scrutiny Sub-Panel did some very good work on this. They have emphasised that any regulation should be flexible enough to include the private rental sector and other social housing providers in the future without significant and costly institutional change. There are repeated references in the Whitehead Report of the need for an independent regulator, over-arching regulation which is not simply for Andium which could extend to the trust associations and also ultimately to the private rental sector because that is where the issue is. There is a risk that if we do not do it properly we will end up with a 2-tier society, a 2-tier housing situation where perversely those in social housing will pay 90 per cent of market rates but those in the actual market rates are possibly going to be left paying more money for the standard of accommodation which is lesser, and that cannot be allowed to happen. If I ask Members to look at the hand-out that I circulated yesterday, if they still have that to hand, now these figures are relatively rough but they are official figures which have been provided by the Social Security Department. They show the extent to which in Jersey we have a distinct lack of availability of social housing. There is roughly about 850 on the Housing waiting list, I believe, the last time I checked, so there is an urgent need for housing. Those people are only the ones that qualify. There are probably a greater need of those who do not meet the criteria which are very narrow and very strict and which the outgoing Minister has told us about on many occasions, so to the point where we have almost 2,000 people in private rental units who are having their rents paid for, subsidised by the taxpayer. The reason is because there are not enough units. So that equates to again, very roughly, this is a conservative estimate because it does not figure in the other category, which includes those living in hostels, other accommodation or sometimes no accommodation at the time of the report, that figure is £8.5 million. That is up from when I stood 3 years ago; it was around the £7.5 million mark. That is a conservative estimate. If we factor-in the other accommodation which it does not include, that is £10 million of taxpayers’ money every year which is going into the back pocket of private landlords. Are we comfortable with that? Even as conservatives in this Assembly, is that a good use of taxpayers’ money, to extract it from those increasingly-squeezed middle to go to what are essentially landlords of all descriptions, and that is not a criticism of landlords per se. We know that there is a relationship and a role for the private landlord to play in the provision of social housing. Unfortunately, when this idea was brought in, it was done as a transitional arrangement, I believe, and it has never been remedied. So we need to get that figure down, we do it by increasing the supply of social housing, by building more, yes, absolutely, but we also need to look at other radical solutions such as perhaps buying property and then renting it out to tenants. We may even have to buy property off those who cannot afford to keep up their mortgages. At least keep the house for them and get them to pay the States or Andium the rent. Why not? We need to have buy-as-you-rent schemes, whether that is administered at Parish level, by Andium or by another mechanism by the trusts. That is something which I talked about in 2011 and which I was pleased to hear the outgoing Minister talk about on the Senatorial platform, so the message does get through sooner or later. But I am not all about the rental sector and I emphasise this: it is not about kicking landlords by any means. There are good landlords, there are good tenants, there are not-so-good landlords and there are not-so-good tenants. This is about bringing clarity in terms of regulation and duty of care. I think that needs to be done by proper regulation, not this talk for voluntary regulation. By all means, it needs to be phased-in. Two other points I would like to make in the next minute and a half is that we also need to make it easier for those who wish to buy property and who are in a position, the deposit scheme is a good one. We need to extend that. We need to look at increasing the Parish schemes. I have seen those in my own Parish, when I have been knocking on doors, who are delighted that they have been able to buy properties, in this case at the back of Syvret’s Garage, down towards La Moye. They are great properties and they say: “Otherwise we would have been living in rental accommodation.” They have become aspirational and they are very happy. That is to be encouraged. The actual process of buying a house, why do we need to go through a Royal Court with the highest judge in the Island presiding over that? Why do we have a precariousness where a sale can fall through at the last minute, in some cases affecting a whole chain of sale, et cetera? In terms of affordable housing, of course we need to source States-owned land.

[14:15]

We need to maximise the amount of social and first-time buyer properties. I was very surprised that J.C.G. only has a 50 per cent quota for social and affordable; 50 per cent for expensive housing, in other words. Why are we doing that on States-owned land? It is perverse. We need to be maximising that. I would also seek to get rid of restrictive practices in the rental market that say “no children”. That is blatantly discriminatory. There are some people over here who have not yet got their full qualifications; maybe 9 years living in the Island with a partner and to be discriminated and told “no children” it is anti-family. That is not the kind of thing we wish to encourage. When it comes to voluntary regulation and accreditation, I think one area we can use that is for estate agents and rental agents. I took some time before today to talk to those working in the sector and they said they would be quite happy to have voluntary accreditation because some of them already follow U.K. best practice, but I was astounded to hear that they do not have that system in place yet. So I think that is an area that we could work on. That is all I have got to say and I look forward to taking questions.

The Bailiff:

Thank you, Deputy. Does any Member wish to ask questions for 20 minutes of Deputy Tadier? Deputy Southern.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Was that me, Sir?

The Bailiff:

Deputy Southern, yes.

3.2.1 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Thank you. I missed the call, as it were. I will ask the 2 questions I asked the previous candidate. When, in the candidate’s estimate, will we be able to make a dent in the 800-plus strong waiting list for the social rental housing indicated under the Housing Transformation Plan?

Deputy M. Tadier:

It is not going to be easy because, of course, there is supply and demand. We need to free-up sites. We need to make sure we start building. As I said, we need to also think outside the box. There is a role for the private sector to play, I think, transitionally, but we need to get them on board as partners. We need to accredit them and say: “You have got some properties that we could use. As long as you are willing to abide by 90 per cent of market rate, then we will give contracts to you and we will inspect the properties to make sure they meet the minimum standards.” I think that is an area we can look at but, also, why are we not going out and buying suitable properties? That is what private landlords do. Private landlords would go up and say: “I am going to buy that block of flats because I can make some money off it.” Why are we not doing that as a Government?

3.2.2 The Deputy of St. John:

Could the candidate state what his views are of a Jersey decent homes standard and how he would ensure that rental is not charged at 90 per cent of market unless the properties meet that standard?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Thank you. I promise I did not plant that question, although it might have been one that ... because it is very pertinent. First of all, this idea of a Jersey decent homes standard. I find it strange that sometimes we put this Jersey label. The Scrutiny Panel did it, saying: “We need measures that are appropriate for Jersey,” i.e. light touch; we will not really worry about it too much. I hope that is not what it means. There is not a Jersey decent homes standard. That is the problem. We have still 20 per cent of properties in Andium that are failing the U.K. Decent Homes Standard. That does not mean that they are all terrible. It just means that they do not meet that standard, although some of them are. She is absolutely correct, the Deputy, because I have seen people in my district whose rents have gone up to 90 per cent, they move into a new flat without a carpet and it is not well insulated and the maintenance is going to have to wait until next year. In the meantime, they are paying for accommodation that is yet to be done up. That is not right and I would reverse that. I would write letters to all of them and say: “Until we have done your property up we are going to freeze your rent at what it was. Once you have had the work done, then you can pay extra.”

3.2.3 The Connétable of St. Martin:

The candidate spoke of quality. I think he said quality and not quantity. What is more important to the candidate on rezoned sites: placing as many homes as possible on the site because it has been rezoned and therefore helping the department or building less homes that might cost more but where families will want to live and remain there for much longer?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I do not think the 2 are mutually exclusive. You need to have minimum standards for builds. There is no point squashing people into boxes, as has been the case in some of the builds. One only needs to think of the top of Gloucester Street where people get claustrophobic and cannot have children in them. The 2 are not mutually exclusive but, of course, we need to maximise sites, if that is what the Constable was asking, and it may well be in certain areas high-builds are appropriate. That is what is going on currently at La Collette, but it needs to be done with consensus from the community and sensitively.

3.2.4 Deputy G.P. Southern:

We are told by the Statistics Unit that, if the interim population targets remain in place, then an additional 4,000 units of accommodation will be needed by 2023. Where would the candidate be putting them?

Deputy M. Tadier:

We know that St. Mary and St. John are currently over-represented in the Assembly and, in the absence of any meaningful reform in this regard, we would have to pile them up in St. Mary and St. John until they have a sufficient amount of people to meet their quota in this Assembly.

3.2.5 Deputy G.P. Southern:

I keep asking Monty not to make jokes, but he still keeps on doing them. Just to put that in perspective, when you look at those additional 4,000 units of accommodation they are equivalent to around one Maufant Estate or around 50 to 60 at Le Marais high-rises. What is his preference?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Joking aside, I think the Deputy knows my commitment to the environment and maintaining green fields but there is a serious point that underlies. We cannot have it both ways. We cannot endorse a Cabinet in this Assembly that is gung-ho on population growth, which they are and which the public has now voted for, and then complain about saving green fields on the one side. The Deputy knows full well that they will be piled into St. Helier and there is the political force in the Assembly to make sure that absolutely happens because, sure as eggs is eggs, they are not going in the country.

3.2.6 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Peter:

In his speech, the candidate suggested that he did not favour a light touch view of regulation. Could the Deputy elaborate? If he is successful, what approach to regulation would he suggest?

Deputy M. Tadier:

What does “light touch” mean? It is almost a question that I need to throw back to the former head of the panel. Surely we want meaningful results. Now, the way I envisage it is that you have a system that says that if you want to be a landlord - you are running a business and it is the second business in the Island yet it is completely unregulated - you need to meet basic standards. I always believe that prevention is better than cure. It is better to make sure that the properties are fit for purpose in the first place rather than waiting for somebody, who is often in a vulnerable position, to make a complaint against the landlord where it is much more costly and it is much inconvenient for both parties. What I see is clear regulation; not so much light or heavy touch, but just clear regulation that people can reasonably meet.

The Bailiff:

Does any other Member wish to ask any questions? No. Then I bring questions to an end. I would ask Deputy Tadier to withdraw and we will ask Deputy Le Fondré to come back. When you are ready, Deputy Le Fondré, you have 10 minutes to address the Assembly.

3.3 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

As I said yesterday, I am passionate about supporting Jersey and I would like to be at the table to add further value and balance to the Council of Ministers, to reiterate, not because it is going to be an easy 3½ years, but because they are going to be hard. Yesterday, Members heard my credentials for Minister for Treasury and Resources and my accountancy and professional and finance background. However, I also touched upon experiences at Jersey Property Holdings and my 18 years Les Vaux Housing Trust, which do qualify me rather well, as well, for this role. Can I say I was heartened by the support of Members yesterday and I am very grateful to those who voted for me and to all of those who asked questions? I congratulate Senator Maclean on his victory and wish him the very best, but I also thank those Members who have encouraged me to challenge for this post today. I know it is unusual to stand for 2 positions, but I think that I do have something to offer in this specific area, partly because now is an exciting time for Housing, given the work of the last 3 years, and partly because of my own experience. There are obviously areas in Housing where I can add value, but the reality is that the portfolio is smaller than previously. However, one thing I would like to bring to this debate is that, if elected, one of my purposes is to give support and, if wanted, assistance to the reform programme to be promoted and overseen, as I understand it, by Senator Maclean, obviously in conjunction with the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers. That is critical for our future and needs as much support as possible. I believe I can blend my social housing experience and my accounting experience to contribute constructively to the Council of Ministers. It is all about adding value, good teamwork and leadership. Let us just deal with the potential for conflicts of interest on the basis of my connection with a particular housing trust. Firstly, it is an honorary position. Secondly, I have taken advice from both the Attorney General and the Greffier and they do not consider there to be a conflict of interest. Thirdly, I have discussed the matter with the Chief Minister and there are solutions to any perceptions of conflict, namely delegation. In practice, it is going to be a similar situation to that, for example, faced by Senator Green in terms of his role as the national chairman of Headway versus his position of Health. It is an honorary position. It is for a charity. He will not have anything to do with any discussions or matters concerning the local branch and I intend to follow that sort of approach.

[14:30]

I would think that would be what Members would expect from me. In my view, that is hugely outweighed by the fact that I do have many years of experience in this area. Now I am going to talk about 3 specific areas. Firstly, why I think this is an important time for Housing and the provision for affordable housing; secondly, why my experience makes me the right person for the job; and, thirdly, what I would plan to do. So where are we with Housing? The last 3 years saw a foundation laid for real progress on this difficult and complicated area. The Housing Bond gave a solid financial footing for the newly-incorporated Andium Homes which will have the flexibility and freedom to bring existing homes up to standards and hopefully build more. Let us just pause there because it is worth focusing on. Social housing is one of the most important services that a Government provides because a safe, warm house is one of the basic staples of life. The fact that some of our housing did not meet U.K. Decent Homes Standard does not reflect well on this Assembly and I congratulate the former Minister, Senator Andrew Green, for all his hard work over the last 3 years to address this important point. But what else fits into the current picture? The States have taken some difficult decisions on rezoning but also, as we see new office development, we will have opportunities to create housing in the secondary office space that is left behind, and I have had direct experience of that not so long ago. All of us who attended hustings meetings during the election campaign would have heard people talk about the need for affordable housing. Some of them see the course of the homes around them and despair and you can see why. The typical cost of a 3-bedroom house in Jersey is more than £500,000. That is almost 15 times, let us say, the annual average wage. It is huge. Even a one-bedroom flat is now at a cost of £219,000. We can see how difficult that makes it and how daunting it must feel for young families desperate to provide for themselves and live under their own roof. But, as I say, the success, for example, of the trial Deposit Loan Scheme, the incorporation of Andium Homes, the rezoning of land and the housing bond gives this new House an excellent platform to deal with that issue. What makes me the right person for the job? Members have already heard me talking about my professional background as an accountant over the last 20 years and they have heard me talk about my work at the Treasury Department and particularly in the area of Property Holdings. That Property Holdings role, of course, is relevant to this portfolio because, of all the candidates for Minister for Housing, I think I am the only one who can demonstrate a track record of having overseen construction and property projects worth many millions of pounds, but they have not heard me talk about my own role in Housing. For the last 18 years I have been honorary secretary of the Les Vaux Housing Trust. We provide more than 360 units of accommodation for around 850 Islanders and they pay just over £3 million in rent. The trust was established by my late father to apply to Troy Court and Members may have seen the recent news that we plan to invest £30 million into the redevelopment of that area. As always, we have placed the tenants at the heart of what we do. They have been key to the proposals and we have been sharing our plans with them well ahead of making a formal planning application. We have also acquired other properties in St. Helier, St. Ouen, St. Clement and St. Lawrence during my time on the trust and have worked in conjunction with Les Amis to operate other properties and to open a bespoke respite care facility in Trinity. That represents an investment into social housing of approximately £20 million and a further £30 million in the offing. So Members will see, I hope, that I am not new to the area of social housing. It has been a huge part of my work for almost 20 years and I believe I can, therefore, bring something very useful to this role because I have seen the process from outside. We all know that working with the Parishes is a crucial part of making progress on housing and I know from my own experience on Les Vaux how crucial the Constables are and the importance of the work that they do and that is not only through Les Vaux. Obviously, in my role as a Parish Deputy, I have been involved in huge variety of things in St. Lawrence also within my time in J.P.H. (Jersey Property Holdings) and T.T.S. (Transport and Technical Services). What about my record in the States? I have been an active participant in the area of housing reform and successfully amended the proposals coming through in the Housing Transformation Plan so that, instead of being charged 90 per cent of market rents, social housing tenants will be charged up to that 90 per cent figure. It sounds like a small change - it took a lot of work to get through - but I knew from my background at Les Vaux that it would give flexibility to housing providers and allow them to make the right decisions on a case-by-case basis to support tenants. It also protected tenants who do need assistance in being housed but who, for whatever reason, are not eligible for income support or do not want to be part of income support. So that is a brief review of my relevant experience. I do not really want to go on too much longer but the last element I want to cover is what I plan to do in the role. Given the platform of work that has been done over the last 3 years, I think the next term is going to be a very good opportunity coming forward. As with everything in politics, the emphasis is on teamwork and I want to continue Senator Green’s work on the Deposit Loan Scheme and I look forward to working with the new Minister for Treasury and Resources on how we can do that. It is so important that we help young people take that first step on to the property ladder, and I believe that the Deposit Loan Scheme is an important mechanism. I want to make sure we get the Housing Gateway working properly and that is an area that does need to be kept under constant review. We have seen in the last few years that the needs of people looking for homes have changed and it is absolutely crucial that the homes we are providing change with those needs as well. I would like to form a working party to sort out the issue of shared equity homes where the States or possibly Andium own a stake of the home, reducing the cost for suitable tenants. We all know it is the right way forward for affordable housing and we all know it might take legislative change. My concern is that we need to treat this as a matter of urgency and get on with it. I make absolutely no criticism in saying that of the former Minister in this regard. I think Senator Green did an outstanding job and if I am elected I look forward to picking his brains and calling on his experience to guide me. The other point that I think is absolutely critical is regulation and standards of rented homes. I want to continue the work that was done on Senator Green’s watch and I propose to undertake a review, starting perhaps sometime next year, to see how matters have settled in. The Housing portfolio is important. I believe I have demonstrated I do have knowledge and a depth of experience in this area, but it is also about adding value to the Council of Ministers and what I can bring to that table. I believe my wider experience and my professional expertise will do just that. Teamwork and expertise; that is what it is all about and I ask Members for their support.

The Bailiff:

We now have 20 minutes for questions to Deputy Le Fondré.

3.3.1 Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour:

I have seen something somewhere in a discussion document about the possible variation of rates. Does the candidate have an opinion on that?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Yes. I have seen something very recently in the document that I have been given. It is included in a discussion document coming out of the S.H.U. (Strategic Housing Unit). All I would say on that is, for me living in Jersey, the joy of living in Jersey is about the community and the style and all the people living here and Parishes are at the heart of all of that. In no way, shape or form do I want to see anything that might threaten to damage that and, to me, the strength of the Parishes is not only lying on the Constables. It is the honorary system and it is also about the rating system. I do not want to see that changed in any shape or form in no sort of terms.

3.3.2 The Deputy of St. John:

Could the candidate state what his views are of a Jersey decent homes standard and how he would ensure that rentals are not charged at 90 per cent of market unless properties meet those standards?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Can I just ask the Deputy, did she say the Jersey decent homes standard or the decent homes standard?

The Deputy of St. John:

The Jersey decent homes standard.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Thank you, because there is a U.K. Decent Homes Standard and the point is there is going to be a “Jerseyfied” version of it but I have not seen it yet, I have to say. The issue on the U.K. Decent Homes Standard is that one has got to be slightly careful that it does not just become a tick-box exercise because it is possible to meet 3 of the 5 criteria but still have a leak coming through the roof, for the sake of argument. I am being slightly simplistic there. How one ensures that tenants are not being charged 90 per cent of market rent for substandard accommodation is always going to be a tricky one. If one is going to make sure that the homes meet the decent homes standard and it is “Jerseyfied” to make sure it is sense and does not become a tick-box exercise and it is very much a voluntary but collaborative approach, then I think, hopefully, most landlords will go along with that. The issue will then be how we deal with the 10 per cent or the 15 per cent landlords who basically do not conform and do not apply appropriate accommodation.

3.3.3 Deputy G.P. Southern:

In the light of the Housing Transformation Plan and having looked at the numbers and talked to the previous incumbent of Housing, does the candidate have any targets or timescales by which he expects to start meeting the 800-plus demand for social rental housing?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I am not going to be able to solve the housing problem in a 30-second or even a 10-second response on the floor of this Assembly. There are developments coming through. I have already referred to one that I know about specifically and obviously we have seen things that are coming through and that have been published recently. When the original Housing Transformation Programme was published… indeed I think Scrutiny made reference to it in its report; they did not see the actual plan in itself and it was based on the initial numbers that were provided as solving the problem. There was recognition that there needed to be another piece of work to keep it moving forward. The discussion document that has been released does imply that there is sufficient supply of land up until 2020 to meet demand. So I am hopeful because that is what I have read in that document. I would obviously wish to investigate that a little further if I am the position to ask the questions on that.

3.3.4 Senator A.K.F. Green:

I have asked one of the other candidates this question. The second one I did not need to ask because he covered it in his speech. The candidate said he is going to continue to build on the work with the S.H.U. and, in particular, I would like to know whether he would continue with the work of regulation of all social housing providers, including the appointment of a social housing regulator and, if not, why not.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I think regulation is important and I go back to - in fact it is quite helpful because I have the page here in front of me - the Scrutiny recommendations. They were not particularly in favour of an independent social housing regulator at that point and I am not too sure about that, but what came very clearly through is they wish to follow what they called a voluntary approach. In fact they amended the proposition to say about bringing in legislation and regulation appropriate for Jersey. So the short answer is we do need regulation. I certainly endorse the comments of the Scrutiny Panel that it needs to be appropriate to Jersey. I was mulling this over. I was thinking about effectively a 2-phased approach and that first phase is very basic. It is things about probity of directors and trustees. It is things about transparency; making sure that accounts are published, most preferably online; accessibility. It is probably about related-party transactions. It is what I call the real basic foundations and there should not be any issues in there at all. It is what you would expect everyone to be doing. Let us set that particular foundation and standard and then let us see where we are going and what is required for further regulation going forward. I would do that as a second phase, but I would like to get the first basic phase in pretty swiftly.

3.3.5 Senator P.F. Routier:

The Minister for Housing sits on the Housing and Work Advisory Group considering applications for licences and registered people for businesses. Could the candidate perhaps give an outline of what approach he would take to those sorts of decisions?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

At the end of the day, my understanding is that H.A.W.A.G. is comprised, I believe, certainly of the Minister for Housing, I believe the Minister for Economic Development and I think the Minister for Planning and Environment as well. Sorry, Social Security. I do apologise. I was thinking of building at that point. The point is they are all there, I believe, in an advisory capacity and it is the questioner who makes the decisions on this matter. Certainly my view is that one follows the policy that this Assembly has laid down and it all about that balance, being population and obviously achieving the economic growth that we are really looking for and need.

3.3.6 Deputy G.P. Southern:

The Statistics Unit tell us that if the interim population targets remain in place then an additional 4,000 units of accommodation will be required by 2023. As the potential Minister most affected by increases in population, will he be arguing for a reduction in the Interim Population Policy?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Again, I think we need to understand the stresses and strains, et cetera, of what is coming through on the Population Policy.

[14:45]

We know that there is a huge concern on the Island about continuing growth of the population, but that does have to be balanced-off very carefully by certainly the competing demands and ongoing demands of businesses. I think that might be the difference between immigration and population and I will certainly be looking at that matter, if appointed, very carefully in discussion with other colleagues and obviously the Council of Ministers.

3.3.7 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Those additional 4,000 units of accommodation equates, in rough terms, to one Maufant Estate or between 40 and 50 Le Marais high-rise blocks. Which of those would the candidate prefer?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

It cannot be one simplistic answer on that at all. We have got to get a real handle on where we are going on those types of numbers that the Deputy is referring to. What I will say is that, in terms of new development and the ongoing competing thing about rezoning and redevelopment, the discussion papers at present seem to indicate that there is sufficient capacity in existing rezoned land and in secondary office space. Certainly what I would like to go through is that should be the priority before one contemplates any further rezoning. I can see the Deputy raising an eyebrow. I was slightly surprised to read that as well, but that is the case in the documents that are being provided to Ministers. Ultimately it is a question for the Minister for Planning and Environment and for this Assembly if land is to be rezoned. What the Deputy may recall is that, in terms of building standards and things like that, I was one of the people that brought amendments to the Island Plan to ensure that there were better space standards, better sound insulation and all that type of stuff in any new builds that come through. I think it is critical that, if higher density or greater density is required, we do make sure it is to the best standards available.

3.3.8 The Connétable of St. Martin:

Does the candidate believe that Jersey’s housing problem will ever be solved or will it just be more of the same?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

It is interesting because I think, if one goes back to the Constable of St. Martin’s immediate neighbour on his right-hand side, I am sure we had these kinds of numbers or worse back in, I am going to say, 1993, but those types of numbers. The list goes up and goes down and comes back up again. We are always going to have, I think, a growing population. In other words, it is never going to be frozen at a level if matters carry on in terms of the economy and things like that and we never get into the really unfortunate position of, say, Alderney. What our job is going to have to be, I think, is to make sure that increase is not uncontrolled.

3.3.9 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Yesterday, in one of the question and answer sessions, there was a suggestion that Property Holdings should not go to the Department of Infrastructure but should go to Housing and I noticed the candidate proposed the candidate that was unsuccessful in that. Would the candidate confirm and put beyond doubt any ideas that he has of effectively merging Housing and Property Holdings and confirm whether or not he had entered discussion about that?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I believe that is a matter of policy and decision for the Chief Minister and the Council of Ministers and I will go with whatever that decision is.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

He did not answer the question. Did he have any discussion about that in relation to discussions that might have led to that suggestion being made yesterday?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

As I said, it is very much a matter for the Council of Ministers and the Chief Minister and whoever else is involved, particularly the new Minister for Treasury and Resources. I do not know if he has been party to those discussions or not. Do I think that there would be scope to do that sort of change? Yes, I do, but I am equally open to the change to a switch to T.T.S. I have no great issue either way. What I want to know is that the matter is properly looked at; it is not a sort of fleeting thought that has been dreamed up a week before - I am sure it is not - and that there are the right financial savings and efficiencies that come out of the decision. It has got to be: “What is the right decision and have we had the discussion about it?” I am assuming that it is something for the new Council of Ministers to discuss and decide upon. If that is the case, I would go with whatever the decision would be.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I know I cannot ask another supplementary. I just wanted a yes or no whether he had had any discussions about it. That is what I asked.

The Bailiff:

You also asked what his view was on it and he has answered that. Are there any other questions? No. Then we will call questions to an end and so I invite Deputy Tadier and the Deputy of Trinity to return to the Assembly. So the Deputies ... no, they are not back yet. I will repeat this when they come back. Just to remind Members, ballot papers have been handed out because there are 3 candidates. You should write your name at the top of the page and the candidate you wish to select beneath that. If you fail to put either name it will be a spoilt paper. Have all Members received a ballot paper? Yes. Then I will ask the Deputy Viscount and the Usher to collect the ballot papers. Have all Members returned their ballot papers? Then I will ask the Attorney, together with the Deputy Viscount and the Deputy Greffier, to act as scrutineers. Do Members want to take nominations for the next Ministerial post? Yes. Chief Minister.

4. The Minister for Planning and Environment

Senator I.J. Gorst:

For the position of Minister for Planning and Environment, I propose the Deputy of St. Martin.

The Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations?

The Connétable of St. Helier:

I would like to propose the Deputy of Grouville.

The Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Are there any other nominations? So we have 2 nominations. I am just trying to think whether we can proceed in any way before the result. Perhaps we will have to wait for the result. Yes. Very well, we had better wait for the result.

[15:00]

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR CURRENT MEETING

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Sir, may I ask a procedural question?

The Bailiff:

Yes.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

We are now at 3.00 p.m. We have got another contested position about to kick off. We will not be finished that until 4.00 p.m. and then we are supposed to take a break. How much more are we going to do today and how much do we have to put off until Tuesday? That is the question.

The Bailiff:

Yes. It is a matter clearly people need to give thought to, as to whether on Tuesday, instead of it being selection of members of panels, we may have to continue on choosing chairmen. Chief Minister, do you have a ...

Senator I.J. Gorst:

I have given it a little bit of thought and the Deputy is right to raise it. I take obviously those candidates who are thinking of standing for this position to be able to take the final Ministerial position - I am not sure whether we then need a recess at all or not and then try - if those people who are thinking of standing take the chairman of Privileges and Procedures - as far as I am aware there are 2 candidates currently thinking of standing, there may be more - and then come back next week once we had done that. I do not know if that meets the Assembly’s approval or not; or we put them all off until next week.

The Bailiff:

Certainly we are likely to take another hour for the final Ministerial and an hour, presumably, for the chairman of P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures). So that is 2 hours, which would take us up to 5.00 p.m. or 5.30 p.m. At most Members could choose to do Public Accounts as well if they are willing to stay on an extra hour.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

This would maybe affect the way if it goes to a vote. Is it not, under Standing Orders - correct me - when the last Minister is sworn in today, the Council then becomes a full Council, not up to Scrutiny or P.P.C.? So really it can be put off until next week and I think people might want to regroup and decide where they want to go. I am in their hands, but I think we go for the Ministers, then you have got your slate and then we come back on Tuesday.

The Bailiff:

Leave P.P.C. and all of them, you mean, until Tuesday?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, because it does not affect the Council. That is what the clarification was. You do not need all the chairs sworn in for the others. The Council is the Council.

The Bailiff:

Yes.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

That is fine, yes.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

I would support that proposal from Deputy Martin on the sheer, inevitable grounds that I am absolutely cream-crackered. [Laughter]

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Can I make that a formal proposal or is it an alternative formal proposal, Sir?

The Bailiff:

We may as well sort that out now. But, before we do that, shall I announce the result of the vote for Minister for Housing? The votes cast were as follows: Deputy Pryke, 25 votes; Deputy Tadier, 5 votes; and Deputy Le Fondré, 19 votes; and there were no spoilt papers. So Deputy Pryke is elected as Minister. [Approbation]

Deputy A. E. Pryke: 25	Deputy M. Tadier: 5	Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré: 19
Senator P.F. Routier	Deputy G.P. Southern (H)	Senator Z.A. Cameron
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf	Deputy M. Tadier (B)	Connétable of St. Lawrence
Senator A.J.H. Maclean	Deputy M.R. Higgins (H)	Connétable of St. Saviour
Senator I.J. Gorst	Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)	Connétable of Grouville
Senator L.J. Farnham	Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)	Connétable of St. John
Senator P.M. Bailhache		Deputy J.A. Martin (H)
Senator A.K.F. Green		Deputy of Grouville
Connétable of St. Helier		Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré (L)
Connétable of St. Clement		Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)
Connétable of St. Peter		Deputy of St. John
Connétable of St. Mary		Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
Connétable of St. Ouen		Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)
Connétable of St. Brelade		Deputy L.M.C. Doublet (S)
Connétable of St. Martin		Deputy R. Labey (H)
Connétable of Trinity		Deputy S.M. Brée (C)
Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)		Deputy M.J. Norton (B)
Deputy of Trinity		Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
Deputy E.J. Noel (L)		Deputy of St. Mary
Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)		Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)
Deputy of St. Martin
Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
Deputy of St. Peter
Deputy of St. Ouen
Deputy S.M. Wickenden (H)
Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)

The Deputy of Trinity:

Can I just thank Deputy Le Fondré and Deputy Tadier. It was good, I think, to have different points of view and all the questions aired well into this arena. So thank you.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Can I also just thank those who did vote for me and congratulate the Minister Elect?

Deputy M. Tadier:

I just wanted to say that I have already congratulated the Minister on the way up the stairs. I am looking forward to working with her in one capacity or another.

The Bailiff:

Now, perhaps the most convenient course would be to decide at this stage what the Assembly is going to do before we move on to the next election for the final Minister. Deputy Martin, you would like to propose formally that we adjourn after completion of the decision on the final Minister?

Deputy J.A. Martin:

Yes, Sir. I would like to make that proposal.

The Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Does any Member wish to say anything about it?

Deputy M. Tadier:

Very briefly, Sir; just from a procedural point of view, I think the reason it is a good idea is that we will need to know, materially perhaps, in order for P.P.C. certainly the formation of it. It requires a certain number of Ministers, Assistant Ministers, et cetera. We will not know who the Assistant Ministers and that will be germane, I think, to people’s considerations both for Scrutiny and for the various committees. That is why I am supporting it.

Senator I.J. Gorst:

Sir, if I could just correct that. While I am quite happy to go with what the Assembly wish and what Deputy Martin has suggested, of course the Chief Minister liaises with whoever the new President of P.P.C. is to agree the Ministerial candidates to sit on that committee. So the chairman has to be chosen before that process can be undertaken.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

May I offer a slight amendment to what Deputy Martin said, that we do settle the matter of the presidency of P.P.C. which is, I think, the next one? So we do Ministers and then P.P.C. and then break.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

You vote against my proposition and make a second one.

The Bailiff:

It is correct for you to have raised that as a possibility. At the moment we have the proposition from Deputy Martin and we will vote on that. If you then want to put forward a new proposition after that, depending on its result, it is up to you. All those in favour of adopting the proposition ... The appel is called for then. So this is the proposition of Deputy Martin that we adjourn after the selection of the last Minister, in other words before the selection of the chairman of P.P.C. If you wish to do that you vote pour. If you do not, you vote contre. The Greffier will open the voting.

POUR: 17	CONTRE: 28	ABSTAIN: 0
Connétable of St. Lawrence	Senator P.F. Routier
Connétable of St. Martin	Senator P.F.C. Ozouf
Connétable of Grouville	Senator A.J.H. Maclean
Deputy J.A. Martin (H)	Senator I.J. Gorst
Deputy G.P. Southern (H)	Senator L.J. Farnham
Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)	Senator P.M. Bailhache
Deputy of Trinity	Senator A.K.F. Green
Deputy M. Tadier (B)	Senator Z.A. Cameron
Deputy of St. John	Connétable of St. Helier
Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)	Connétable of St. Clement
Deputy of St. Martin	Connétable of St. Peter
Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)	Connétable of St. Mary
Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)	Connétable of St. Ouen
Deputy S.M. Brée (C)	Connétable of St. Brelade
Deputy M.J. Norton (B)	Connétable of St. Saviour
Deputy of St. Mary	Connétable of St. John
Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)	Connétable of Trinity
	Deputy of Grouville
	Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)
	Deputy E.J. Noel (L)
	Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)
	Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
	Deputy of St. Peter
	Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
	Deputy of St. Ouen
	Deputy R. Labey (H)
	Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
	Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

May I put my proposition, Sir?

The Bailiff:

Your proposition, just so that I am absolutely clear, is that we continue today to do the final Minister and the Chairman of P.P.C. and then adjourn?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Yes, Sir.

The Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded]

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Yes, Sir. Could I say we adjourn until Tuesday?

The Bailiff:

Adjourn until Tuesday, at which time we would complete the rest of the chairmen and the Council.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Under Standing Orders there is an adjournment.

The Bailiff:

One moment, Deputy. Just to make it clear that, of course, we would have to adjourn after that to another day next week in order to select the members of the Council. So I think it goes with your proposition that we have to sit on Wednesday or Thursday.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

That seems a sensible way forward, Sir. Sorry. Would you wish to take some advice from the Greffier, Sir?

The Bailiff:

The Greffier has pointed out Wednesday will probably be too soon. Deputy, you wanted to raise your point.

Deputy G.P. Southern:

Yes. I wish to draw the attention of the Chair to 117A in the Standing Orders which says: “After the selection of Ministers under Standing Order 117 is complete, the presiding officer shall invite the Members of the States to decide whether they will adjourn immediately or continue at a time later that day.” To invite us to adjourn. I believe that the intention is that there should be an adjournment before carrying on with this after we finish the Ministerial ...

The Bailiff:

You are right. Regardless of this, I shall apply that Standing Order. So, after the Ministers are complete, I will ask Members again whether they want to adjourn or not. They do not have to. They can go straight on. So let us just recall. The proposition now is that of Senator Ozouf. It has been seconded, which is at the moment that we plan, subject to any contrary decision brought under Standing Order 117A, that we continue until we have completed the selection of the chairman of the P.P.C. We will complete the others on Tuesday and a further date will have to be fixed for selection of panel members. If you wish to vote for that, you vote pour. If you do not, you vote contre. The Greffier will open the voting.

POUR: 41	CONTRE: 5	ABSTAIN: 0
Senator P.F. Routier	Deputy J.A. Martin (H)
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf	Deputy G.P. Southern (H)
Senator A.J.H. Maclean	Deputy M. Tadier (B)
Senator I.J. Gorst	Deputy of St. Martin
Senator L.J. Farnham	Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)
Senator P.M. Bailhache
Senator A.K.F. Green
Connétable of St. Helier
Connétable of St. Clement
Connétable of St. Peter
Connétable of St. Lawrence
Connétable of St. Mary
Connétable of St. Ouen
Connétable of St. Brelade
Connétable of St. Martin
Connétable of St. Saviour
Connétable of Grouville
Connétable of St. John
Connétable of Trinity
Deputy of Grouville
Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)
Deputy of Trinity
Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)
Deputy E.J. Noel (L)
Deputy of St. John
Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)
Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)
Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
Deputy of St. Peter
Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)
Deputy of St. Ouen
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet (S)
Deputy R. Labey (H)
Deputy S.M. Wickenden (H)
Deputy S.M. Brée (C)
Deputy M.J. Norton (B)
Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
Deputy of St. Mary
Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)
Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)

The Bailiff:

We come on now to the selection of the Minister for Planning and Environment, so I invite the Deputy of Grouville to withdraw. Then I invite the Deputy of St. Martin to address the Assembly for up to 10 minutes.

4.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:

Right at the outset could I say that I am very grateful to the Chief Minister for putting me forward for this role? But I want Members to be quite clear that I want to do this job, indeed I asked to be allowed to do it, because the environment that is Jersey is a subject that I care passionately about. Members will know that in the last session I worked in Scrutiny as both Economic Affairs Chairman and Environment Vice-Chairman, so E.D. (Economic Development), T.T.S. and Planning and Environment were my 3 specialist subjects. When I came to deciding where I might want to direct my efforts in the coming 3½ years and how best I could work with others, it did not take long to decide that, as Minister for Planning and Environment, I would have the opportunity to work with E.D. to help develop the economy and work with T.T.S. on the obligations they have to provide public services to our Island. But Planning and Environment is also a Ministry that reaches out and touches just about every part of Island life: Health with the new hospital looming, Housing obviously, Property Holdings, and I have already mentioned T.T.S. and E.D. My mantra has always been working together and, as Minister for Planning and Environment, I would hope to work closely and effectively with all other Ministers. The Chief Minister, in his address to us on Monday, used the word “interconnectedness” and, regardless of whether that word appears in the Oxford English Dictionary, I want to be the Minister of a department that has interconnectedness at its core. Many people have asked me over the last 48 hours why I would want this position, with many of them likening it to committing political suicide. I am not one for looking back at what has gone before. I am positive and excited about this role and I look forward, hopefully, to being a Minister that can bring common sense, levelheadedness and responsible decision-making to the coming session. I do not want to or feel the need to look back or look further than this session. I am not concerned with my re-election chances. I just want to do the best I can as I was elected to do, but who would not want this job? What a fantastic opportunity it provides to be positive, to do things well and work with others for the common good of our Island. So what qualifications do I have for this role? From a planning perspective, I have built my own house with my own ideas and designs and my own staff and, more recently, I have converted a small cottage, handing the whole project over to a builder so I was not compromised. So I have had practical experience of the applications, planning bylaws and building controls processes.

[15:15]

From an environmental perspective, I have spent my life as a farmer; a mixed farmer in the truest sense of the word, growing all manner of vegetables and flowers as well as running a herd of 120 head of cattle. More recently, I added oysters and mussels to my farming business and finally integrated a flock of 8,000 free-range egg-producing chickens into my company. I know what it is like to be on call and work 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, to work with animals, to work on the land and to work on the beach. My boating experience also allows me to know more than a little about fishing and my life boating over more than 20 years means that I know only too well what a difficult and uncompromised job our local fishermen have to do and what a tough environment they have to work in. I want to do everything that I can to support farming and fishing and I am grateful to the Chief Minister for specifically highlighting those 2 professions in his speech to us on Monday. The department’s remit is planning and environment and, if successful, I want to balance the 2. Neither one can work in isolation from the other. We all know that space is at a premium in our small Island but everyone must have access to green areas, especially in St. Helier, and to that ideal I am committed, just as I am committed to providing sensible and appropriately-sized living accommodation. I want to make St. Helier a place where people want to live and I want to continue working on the Future of St. Helier project. There has been any number of reports and many masterplans for our capital over the years, but it is time to bring all that knowledge together and put it into action and create an urban environment where people enjoy living. It will not be easy; it certainly will not be quick; but it can be done and we should strive for that goal, starting immediately. I am already a fair way through my allotted time, so I hope Members will allow me to list just a few of the many areas I also want to concentrate on over the next session should I be successful. We have a wonderful and extensive footpath network in and around Jersey and, if I become Minister, I would want to enhance and extend that existing footpath system. I want to increase the amount of permitted development. For example, people should not have to apply for the likes of satellite dishes. We should have guidelines and allow people to get on. I will embrace technology. I want monitors in all Parish Halls so the public can access all planning applications online as well as other States decisions. If we are really to get to grips with eGovernment, we need to start now and I will keep detailed paper plans to a minimum. I want planning decisions that provide consistency throughout the process. I also want to continue to work on acceptable timescales for decisions, although I have to tell this Assembly that much progress has already been made in this regard. I am told that our current Planning Law is 50 years old. It may need reviewing; something that could be done in consultation completely with the public. Our current Island Plan is far too long. There is too much opportunity for contradiction and it allows potential for different decisions to be reached depending on what sections you refer to. This cannot be right. We need to see if and where we continue to improve. I want to come down heavily on boundary infractions and retrospective applications. I am not prepared to tolerate developers who deliberately build on or over boundaries where they think they can get away with it. Similarly, all too often in the past I have seen unapproved work going on, followed by a retrospective application. The old maxim of: “Well, it is built and it is too complicated now to knock down or change”, has to stop. I do not want either of these practices to continue. I will look to balance planning decisions with the economic environment. In my view, we cannot divorce one from the other. This has been our downfall in the past and we must make greater efforts to keep the construction sector at a consistent size. Boom and bust has not and does not work and I fear we are just about to find that out again in the next few years. While on Scrutiny, I reviewed the energy policy out to 2050. I am committed to doing my share to implement this policy. Just because it is such a long-term document, it is not good enough to continually say that we will start on that next year. We need to start now. We must move forward on alternative energy and I will encourage the use of micro-renewables. In a similar vein, I will also promote both wind and tidal power. There are diversification opportunities here for the Jersey economy that we must not miss. I will continue to do my very best for farmers and fishermen. I will work with them but I will not seek to impose on them. Through the new Rural Economy Strategy, I also commit to using their budget to help them in the best way possible. Finally, it would be unwise of me not to acknowledge that you cannot please all the people all the time and, when it comes to pleasing all the people, planning decisions are right up there at the top of the “very difficult to do” list. People must expect that sometimes they will be disappointed by a certain decision, but they should still expect a sensible and understandable explanation as to why things have turned out like they have. With that in mind, I look forward to implementing the new planning appeals system which will be more timely, far less costly and easier to access for all. I want to bring my experience to this role. I very much hope that Members will be sufficiently confident to allow me to take on this hugely important Ministry, one that has to balance the environment, the economy and the community. [Approbation]

The Bailiff:

We now have up to 20 minutes for Members to question the Deputy of St. Martin.

4.1.1 Deputy M. Tadier:

Does the candidate agree with me that something needs to be done to tackle the 5-year permission for planning, which is far too long and, in any case, which expires once a spade has been put into the ground? Would he make an undertaking to reduce this time period so that we can get developments coming in much more quickly and not encouraging, inadvertently, those with planning permission to sit on permits?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I am not going to give a commitment today, but I share the Deputy’s frustrations. On a number of occasions there will be any number of States Members who have approached the department and said: “We need to do this and we need to do the other” and who are told that they are a very large number of outstanding applications that have been approved, which are not being built. It is quite clear that some developers have permissions to build quite large office blocks or housing units and they are not getting on and doing that and that is very frustrating, because how one can control the amount of housing we build is difficult for us when we have gone to permission but the developer does not get on. So what I will do for the Deputy is to commit to looking to this again. I have certainly thought about it in my head a few times. It is a very difficult nut to crack because if you say to a developer: “We are going to give you permission and if you have not started work within an allotted time we will take your permit away” what we will have across the whole Island is sites that are started but not completed, and that would be the last thing that I would wish to do by changing that law.

4.1.2 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

I believe the candidate touched upon handling planning applications in a timely manner. Would the candidate expand on this with reference to clearing any backlog?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

In the discussions that I have had with officers at the department, it did raise the issue of consistency and the issue of timing or the amount of time given to give permission or give an adjudication on any certain application. I was told that this has improved greatly and I believe it has, but there still is a percentage of outstanding applications which have not been dealt with in what I would regard as a suitable time and I do commit to the Deputy to look at that. As I said in my address, I think that consistency is one thing that everybody would look for from the department, but the other one is a commitment on the amount of time that the department will take before it comes out with a decision. I think it is only fair that, whether you are a small, medium or a very large developer, when you put in an application you should be given a time and that time should be stuck to, certainly in the U.K. you would not be waiting anywhere like the length of time for some of these decisions to come out of the department.

4.1.3 Senator L.J. Farnham:

Can I ask the candidate about the planning fees? Our planning fees are generally quite high and arguably among the highest in the United Kingdom. Now, it can be argued that it is serving as a barrier, especially small works and extensions, for people wanting to extend homes and this is quite important for the economy and the construction industry, in particular. Will he undertake to look at that to ensure that our planning fees are reasonable?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

If successful, I will certainly undertake to look at it. I am aware that fees are an issue and obviously very large fees have that implication all the way through. It adds to the building cost and then it adds to the person buying the property or the office that is being rented, whichever way you care to put it. I did also hint in my speech that I would be very much in favour of adding to the permitted development list so that lots of small works ... and I did not just mean satellite dishes. There are lots of other things on that list that we could allow to be done without a permit. That would save people money. But I take the Deputy’s concerns on board. Some of the applications that we have seen in the last 5 years have attracted enormous planning fees and if they are justified that is fine, but I do commit to look at them and to make sure that that justification is right.

4.1.4 Deputy R.G. Bryans:

As one of the 3 remaining Planning Applications Panel members now still in the Assembly, I wonder if the candidate could give us his views on how he would work with the Planning Applications Panel should he be elected?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

As I alluded to in my speech, I am a team player and I like working alongside and with other people. My Assistant Minister would be a key person in that team, but the Planning Applications Panel, which will become the Planning Committee in the New Year, will also be a really crucial part of the team. It is so important that everybody is consistent, from the first officer that opens the envelope when the application arrives in the department right the way through the system to the building controls, to the Planning Applications Panel to the Minister. We should all be singing from the same hymn sheet. This Assembly agrees the Island Plan and that is the bible that everyone should work to. It should be a document which is simple enough for all to understand. There is no doubt that in the new appeals system things are going to change and there will be a little bit more work for the new panel and they will take on a much more important role. The Minister will only get involved right at the end of the process or in an instance where a very large application is submitted and the Minister decides that it is too important and it has to go straight to him after a U.K. inspector has looked at it. Yes, I have a team in mind and the Planning Applications Panel is very much a part of that.

4.1.5 The Connétable of St. Mary:

I was very enthusiastic to receive the speech of the candidate because I agree with pretty much everything he said. His general direction was very interesting to me. However, I did have some concerns about his support for wind power. Does the candidate accept that there are many damaging environmental aspects to wind power that need to be considered and that indeed the environmental benefits and financial returns may turn out to be much lower than was originally estimated in this form? Will he undertake to keep an open mind on this issue?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I certainly undertake to keep an open mind on all these types of issues. The reason I am enthusiastic about wind power is that I am aware that in the next few years, and I would not say much more than 2020, there are financial opportunities with wind power that Jersey may be able to tap into. It would be a big project. It would mean the External Relations Department getting involved with our French neighbours. It would be a multinational thing but, if it could be pulled off and we could access E.U. funds to help us to potentially fund a wind farm somewhere, it is something that might be looked at. So that is on the grand commercial scales. I am interested to see what might be available there, but certainly in my Parish we have too small wind turbines on houses, which I also find of great interest.

[15:30]

The Bailiff:

Deputy, I am sorry, I am going to have to ask you to be a little bit more concise. There are a number of Members who want to ask questions. They are entitled to ask supplementary questions in order to test you.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I am very sorry, Sir. At the other extreme, home wind power generation is also something that I think we can certainly be looking at.

4.1.6 The Connétable of Grouville:

Is the candidate happy that agricultural responsibility and fisheries responsibility are to be split into 2 departments and it should be looked at again.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I am aware that Fisheries have decided that all their funding will go to the Environment Department, but agriculture will continue to be funded and offices of the E.D. will work out of the Environment Department. It has been a peculiar setup for a number of years and I have to agree with the Constable, it has been probably difficult to administer or more difficult to administer, but what I would say to him is that I would hope in the new Council of Ministers that it will not matter whether it is the Minister for Economic Development or the Minister for the Environment, it will be a team effort. Where the money comes from and where the money goes to, it will be administered in the same way and I cannot envisage any problems or difficulties with that in the future.

4.1.7 The Connétable of St. Helier:

In answering questions on Monday, the Chief Minister said that he would not support the imposition of development on Parishes which were unwilling to take it, and I think we were particularly talking about St. Helier. I welcome the candidate’s comments about consolidating the various reports that have been done about the Parish and would just ask for his assurance that he will work with not only the Constable, but the Deputies, the Roads Committee, the Procureurs and everyone else involved in planning St. Helier to make sure that solutions are not imposed on the Parish from South Hill.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

Absolutely, I would give that agreement and I will also say to the Constable I would look forward very much to working with him and his team, along with T.T.S. and all the other Ministries which must be involved in the future development of St. Helier. It is crucial that everybody has their say, compromises are reached and everybody goes away happy.

4.1.8 Deputy R. Labey:

Land reclamation does not have to be a flat plinth of inert waste ringed by concrete rubble, which is all Jersey has had since the occupation. Worse, La Collette is laid out as though Jersey had space to waste, with tin sheds, surface car parks dotted with sodium lights, when it could, with imagination, house the most southerly community in the British Isles. What is his vision to unlock the potential of that area?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

That is a very, very difficult question to answer in 15 seconds, so I will not begin to attempt to start, but what I would say is that I visited that site with the Environment Scrutiny Panel at the beginning of our tenure 3 years ago. We were absolutely astounded at what was happening there with the burial of not only the A.P.C.R (Air Pollution Control Residues) that came out of the chimney, but also the bottom ash and we decided immediately that something had to be done. We worked very hard with T.T.S. on that. I am aware that T.T.S. and the Environment Department - how can I say it - did not get on as best as they could have done over the 3 years and it is a great shame, because some of these issues down there could have been resolved earlier. Asbestos was another one in particular which I felt has been dragging its feet for a number of years and we should have resolved, but what I would say to the Deputy is if the fuel farm was not there, it is quite obvious without Buncefield, we could be doing great things. I have a vision as a maritime person for a new potential harbour down there, but it seems to me that there is great potential. We have got to be very careful, and it is a very, very, very long-term plan, but we have to think about where that fuel farm is going to end up before we can move forward.

4.1.9 Deputy A.D. Lewis:

The Planning Department in the business sector is often referred to as the Department for Business Prevention. What would the candidate do to change the perception? Many people seem to have negative stories about the Planning Department. I hope that he can turn them into some positive stories. Could he also give some assurance that when pre-planning ...

The Bailiff:

Sorry, I think that is one question, Deputy Lewis.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

Planners have an incredibly difficult job to do. I think most people when they put an application in can see very little reason why it should not be accepted and why rules should not be bent to suit their particular case, just like all of us would like a 20-mile-an-hour zone outside our house, but want to drive around the rest of the Island at 40 miles an hour. We all think we should be treated differently, which is why planners really do have a job to do. All I can say to the Deputy is that I would look at making sure that everybody is treated fairly, they are treated in the same way, so that their application is viewed in as short a period of time as possible. I did mention in my speech that I think we have got to find a way of marrying the economics of the Island with the Environment Department and the Planning Department. I think we must find a way of taking economic circumstances into account when we come to make some of these decisions.

4.1.10 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

What emphasis does the candidate place on the preservation of listed buildings and would he undertake to reintroduce grants to owners for essential repairs?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

Historic and listed buildings is not going to be an easy nut to crack either in the coming years. We all know of listed buildings, churches and other monuments which people struggle to do any work on at all and I have to say to the Constable that I acknowledge that this is going to be a difficult part of the Planning Department for me to get on in. But what I would say to her is it has been obvious to us, and we have asked the question of the previous Minister for Planning and Environment as a Scrutiny Panel when we said to him: “What is the situation when a person X has a listed building but cannot afford to repair it in the manner that they are told they have to? What is the answer? Do you have money?” and the answer was: “No, we do not.” At the moment I have to say to the Constable I would very much like to have a pot to dip into and help people who are in financial difficulties with listed buildings to help them through. At the moment, I do not think that is possible, but again, we must look at ways to try to move forward. If the alternative to not working on listed buildings because there is no financial help is to watch that building fall down, that cannot be acceptable. We do have to find a way to move forward. I am not prepared to see historic buildings fall into disrepair because there is no money available to do it.

The Deputy of St. Ouen:

My question is also about listed buildings, which has just been fully answered.

4.1.11 The Connétable of Trinity:

My question is similar to the Constable of St. Lawrence, but could I ask for the candidate’s view on the preservation of our built heritage and the need to improve the thermal performance of our housing stock so that people are not forced to live in cold, draughty conditions simply because they live in a traditional property?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I think the Constable has done an extremely good job of explaining the difficulties that I alluded to in the previous question. We have a challenge here. On one hand, we have accepted an energy policy which commits us to reducing our carbon emissions, and the greatest part of that carbon emissions is in 2 sections. One is transport and the other one is in domestic, which means our homes. We have new bylaws which we are agreeing to all the time about insulation for properties and we have new-style windows, treble glazing, we have got floor, loft, everything is insulated and sealed up so that we burn less energy to stay warm. But on the other hand, we have this problem where we have historic buildings and we are told we can do nothing very much and we must use wood and single glazing. There has to be a way through this. The 2 sides have to move and they have to move closer together and meet somewhere in the middle. I would also say to the Constable I find it very difficult to understand why if you can stand 10 feet away from a window and not know whether it is a single, double or triple glazing, it is very difficult for me as a layman to see why that should not be the case. [Approbation] Certainly if you were in Scandinavia, the laws over there at the moment insist you can do nothing else except triple glazing. We need to move on this and I commit to trying to find a way through the middle, which will not be easy.

4.1.12 The Connétable of St. Brelade:

The candidate has already touched on dealings with the public. In answer to written questions in the past and the investigations I have made with the department, there were very, very few complaints made against the Planning Department, and I have got my own views as to why that is the case. How would the candidate ensure that there is a transparent, robust complaints procedure for architects, agents, applicants and just members of the public to speak their minds without any fear of retribution in any future dealings with the department?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I have raised the subject of complaints with officers at the department and was told that there are very few that were received. Having said that, I was also told that they are always aware that there are unhappy and disgruntled developers out there who are never satisfied with the department’s performance. I think somewhere between the 2 is probably where the truth lies. I can only concur with the Constable in saying that like many other walks of life, people fear complaining in case they are found out who they are and the dealings with that department in the future are then affected. I would say this to the Constable, that I will commit to looking at complaints and I am sure the public will not be short in phoning me up, should I be successful to be Minister, to complain. I would certainly look at ways that the complaints procedure could be handled sympathetically.

4.1.13 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Planning is very much about policy, legislation and process, and indeed a former Minister for Planning and Environment has fallen foul in the past, I believe, by failure to follow process, therefore what are the qualifications specifically and relevant experience that the candidate brings to this role other than passionate interest?

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I thank the Deputy for his question. In preparation for this, I did write out my honorary C.V. which I put into 3 sections: the environment, agriculture and general. What I would say to the Deputy is in the past I have been a member of the Youth Panel; I have been a roads inspector for St. Martin; a member of the Jersey Police Complaints Authority for 5 years; I am still a member of the executive of the Chamber of Commerce and I have been a mentor in Advance to Work, Entrepreneurship Week ...

The Bailiff:

Sorry, Deputy. We will never know what the rest of your qualifications are. [Laughter] Then I would ask the Deputy of St. Martin to withdraw and then ask the Deputy of Grouville to come back. Yes, Deputy, so when you are ready, you have up to 10 minutes to address the Assembly.

4.2 The Deputy of Grouville:

In the absence of a debate on the Chief Minister’s policy, this vote to elect a Minister for Planning is the only opportunity that Members will have for the next 3 years to set the policy direction for this vital area of government. It affects each and every Islander every day of their lives, so why am I asking you to give me the job? There are 6 reasons. After 12 years in the States, I believe I not only have the credentials and experience to do the job, I also have a track record, in my own Parish anyway, of protecting the countryside and fighting against inappropriate development. Secondly, I care deeply about planning issues and have thought long and hard about what works and what does not. We have a beautiful Island, but little thanks to the way parts of it have been treated over the last 25 years. However, I am an optimist, we can build a better Island; but I am also a realist. I will not be suckered by slick presentations that carefully flatter aggressive and unsuitable schemes with blue skies, fluffy trees and a strange absence of traffic on the roads. Thirdly, I want to reconcile the competing forces within the Island. There is a view that the requirements of big business and the ordinary citizen cannot be reconciled. I believe they can and I am the woman to do it. I believe we can all prosper from a clearer planning system that removes costly doubt and false starts for the entrepreneur, but crucially also reassures homeowners that some huge monstrosity is not about to be built, towering over their home and literally casting their life into shadow.

[15:45]

I am standing as Minister on behalf of all those citizens who have expressed concerns about the absence of States commitment to the environment. It was nowhere to be found in the Chief Minister’s policy statement or in the manifestos of numerous current States Members. I want to redress that balance. We owe this to our children. Our legacy to them must not be a damaged environment. It is a challenge; it is a challenge we must not duck. I want to offer an alternative to the “keep building regardless” agenda. I have been fulfilling the role as Assistant Minister for Economic Development and Environment, with the responsibility for agriculture and fisheries for the past 3 years, where I had no role in Planning. I was frustrated by having to stand on the sidelines, hearing public concerns about the disconnect between the 2 sectors on such matters as Plémont. I am also standing to point out the severing of the rural and fisheries portfolios is, I believe, to be a great mistake. Fisheries should not be lumped with Planning. What would I do as part of my Minister’s brief? First off, I will drive home the agreed improvements to our planning system. I will ensure this is done promptly, I will set the environment policies, but will no longer have a role in deciding individual planning applications. Next I want to bring clarity to the Island Plan. As Senator Bailhache memorably said in his speech 3 years ago: “Our planning system should not have to be met with anxiety. Indeed, it should offer clarity to the developers too. What wastes time and money is uncertainty.” There is scope to clear things up. I would set the procedural rules for the new Planning Applications Committee and new appeals system. This will need to be implemented swiftly and efficiently. This should increase public confidence in the system and I would always look at ways to improve unnecessary bureaucracy and restore common sense. Despite the current recession, the Island is under pressure from inappropriate and damaging developments. I have always argued against development of greenfields and will ensure the Island Plan is rigorously enforced. Equally, I am concerned that this cannot mean we solve all our demands by piling people up in town. There has to be a third way. I think it lies in the rather wasteful use we make of the space at La Collette. It is time to review that area carefully. This brings me to a point I made earlier. I am extremely concerned by the Chief Minister’s plans for splitting the agriculture and fisheries portfolios, their budgets and their thematic working. Agriculture and fisheries deserve their own focus. Clearly, they do not fit comfortably with pure environment and tend to be placed at the bottom of the economic development agenda, but they are crucial, they are vital elements in our long-overdue drive towards economic diversification. They remind us of our past and we must give them a future. At the end of the day, they are commercial industries and all their elements should be brought together, along with energy and the future commercial industries of wind and tidal. After all, if it is good enough for digital to have its own setup, it is good enough for our farmers and fishermen. We owe them that and I make no apology for speaking up for them in this Assembly. Under current policies, St. Helier is expected to absorb our future population growth. We must improve the town environment to make it an attractive place where people want to live, using Willie Miller’s analysis of what gives St. Helier its character and encourage development that reflects it. We must get this right, demand high standards or we will simply create dense urban ghettos, which will lead to future social problems. I would want to work closely with the St. Helier Constable on the regeneration plan. Indeed, I would want to work closely with all the Parish Constables and their communities on their own village and coastal plans, but what I would aspire to most of all would be a vision for our Island, not just planning, what we want it to look like in 5, 10, 30 years’ time and how we are going to achieve that collectively. Finally, I just state clearly that the implementation of our renewable energy policy would be a priority. I would follow the recommendations of the Scrutiny Panel, which requires an action plan to be produced within 12 months. My view is that good environmental policy is good economic policy and they need not be in opposition. During my period in office, I would make this my motto: a good environment, well-designed, is good for business.

The Bailiff:

Very well. The Assembly now has up to 20 minutes to question the Deputy of Grouville. I have seen first Deputy Kevin Lewis.

4.2.1 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

What action would the candidate take to clear any backlog in planning applications?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Thank you. I am rather glad that question has been asked, because I was not sure of the timing of my speech there. I tend to speak slowly, so I could not cram everything in. The last Minister, top of his priority was to try to reduce the wait for planning applications and he and his department did a tremendous job. As we stand at this time, they aimed to get all the applications seen to within 13 weeks, and at this moment in time, there are only 14 applications who have gone just beyond that and 8 of these are ready to be determined, but unfortunately we do not have an active Planning Applications Panel formed just yet. I think that is a record to be proud of and I would like to pay tribute to the previous Minister and his officers for this work.

4.2.2 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

A supplementary. It has come to my attention that sometimes for a modest-sized building, applicants are sometimes required to submit a detailed scale model of the building, sometimes costing £2,000. In this era of computer-aided design, does the candidate feel that this unnecessary expense is warranted?

The Deputy of Grouville:

When he describes it like that, I would say yes, but as I said in my speech, I would like common sense to prevail. Obviously I do not know what application he is talking about, but certainly, as he says, in a digital age that makes perfect sense to me.

4.2.3 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I am going to put a question, slightly varied but very similar question I asked the previous candidate. Planning is very much about policy, legislation and process, and indeed I recall a previous Minister for Planning and Environment I believe has fallen foul in the past of failure to follow process. Does the candidate agree with me that any candidate seeking the Ministerial position of Minister for Planning and Environment should ideally have experience of planning beforehand and could she expand a little bit more of her experience that she brings to this role?

The Deputy of Grouville:

As I said, I do not have any direct experience in the planning side. I was Assistant Minister with a very specific remit of agriculture and fisheries which went over 2 Ministries, so my credentials specifically to planning in the Planning Department are limited. I have, however, spent the last 12 years supporting constituents who have found that inappropriate developments are shooting up alongside of them or there are applications and I have always sought to look at the case, view it on its own merits. More often than not, I have found myself at Planning meetings speaking up for my constituents or arguing against inappropriate, over-sized development.

4.2.4 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

A supplementary. Very quickly, does the candidate agree then that she has a good grasp of the planning policy she has had to challenge on?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Absolutely, on the challenging side as opposed to the creating.

4.2.5 Deputy M. Tadier:

Does the candidate agree with me that in a climate where we have a housing shortage and high commercial rents that it is completely unacceptable for properties to lie derelict or unoccupied, and if she does, what specific action would she take as Minister to rectify this issue?

The Deputy of Grouville:

This is an issue, but I guess the Deputy also is, as we gathered yesterday, a human rights panel member or something like that in Jersey, and I do not know how you would be able to force somebody to do something with their property. But I agree, it does seem ridiculous that when we have a housing shortage that there are some properties lying empty. This is possibly an area I could look at and take up, but on the housing matter, the statistics, more alarming than the derelict properties is probably the fact that there are permissions out there that have been determined by Planning, there are 3,000 permissions that are waiting to be developed. To my mind, if all those dwellings were permitted, some of those will be for social housing, some of them private developments, whatever, but if they were all developed, we would solve our housing problem overnight, so maybe we ought to be looking at how we can assist developers or property owners to develop their dwellings that way.

4.2.6 Deputy M. Tadier:

A supplementary. I am glad to hear that, because that was the question I asked the previous candidate. It is reassuring, but specifically can the candidate clarify, it is not a human right to be able to leave a property derelict or unoccupied and that the enjoyment of one’s property is a qualified right. It is one which the States can use reasonable legislation if it is deemed appropriate, I believe. Would the Minister make it a priority to bring in some kind of regulation so that things like Plémont, Dumaresq Street do not need to sit there lying derelict, so that action can be taken by the Minister by Ministerial Decision or otherwise?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Yes, certainly, and maybe this is an area that I could work with the Constables. Maybe unoccupied property would command a greater Parish rate or a mechanism like that.

4.2.7 The Connétable of St. Mary:

I appreciate that the candidate had a lot of ground to cover and she only had time to give a brief mention to renewable energy. Would she kindly give me her views on wind farms in general and turbines generally?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Yes. This is an area I am very, very interested in. Wind turbines is something that we could do in partnership with the French. Earlier this year in April I signed an agreement with French Normandy and our fellow Channel Islands to agree to share our information. In that particular instance, it was on tidal power. I think we are quite a long way off, because of the expense of it.

[16:00]

No matter how green you are, if we were to invest in that, the electricity would still end up costing us about 7 times more than what we pay at the moment, but it is certainly something that we should be looking at; we should be exploring both wind and tidal power. The French are obviously far more advantaged than us, because they get E.U. subsidies for renewables, so they can draw on that, but it is something that we have to look at with Jersey Electricity, and we have to be prepared. It is a route we must go down, because if anything happened with Europe and our electric tariffs were to go up even further, then we would have to ... well, I say “resort,” hopefully it is a way we are going to go in the future. But wind is something that we are more advanced or we could be more advanced on than tidal, because the technology is not quite there with tidal because it is still so expensive.

4.2.8 The Connétable of St. Mary:

A supplementary. Does the candidate know that there are many damaging environmental aspects that need to be considered when looking at wind power, and that recent research has shown that in many instances, the environmental benefits and the financial returns of wind power are much less than was originally thought? Would the candidate undertake to keep a very open mind on this and to fully weigh up all the evidence that these are damaging the environment as well as any benefits?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Yes, absolutely, and we certainly have an officer at the Environment Department who is excellent and very, very well-versed in all of this and the commercial side as well. She is not just green, she is very switched-on to the commercial elements and what it would cost at the end of the day, and indeed the detrimental elements.

4.2.9 The Connétable of St. Ouen:

I would like to ask the candidate in regards the conundrum that the Parish of St. Ouen find themselves in. The candidate says that she would like to work with the Parishes over village plans, but she also says she is totally opposed to building in the green zone. The Parish of St. Ouen village is totally surrounded by green zone.

The Deputy of Grouville:

We would have to look at the map of St. Ouen and consider all the options. I said that there is an Island Plan and we should stick to that. I think it is unfortunate when we have an Island Plan… and where we get into trouble is when plans are submitted and we deviate, so somebody can buy a house, pay a premium for it because they expect to be living alongside a greenfield in the green zone and then suddenly 18 months down the line, that has all changed, they find they have got a housing estate alongside them. But I would work certainly with the Constables to come up with schemes, shared equity and the like, as they have in Trinity and we could explore brownfield sites if there are any, but I would like to sit down with each Constable and explore all the options.

4.2.10 Senator L.J. Farnham:

Moving to the theme of listed buildings, what is the candidate’s views on the process for listing buildings and what are her views, for example, on buildings such as the Odeon receiving the same classification of listing as, for example, our forts, follies, towers and castles?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Personally, I have had a bad experience with a listed building and this is an area that I would like to look at, because I think in some cases, Planning have gone out and listed homes and then expected to jump through hoops, but there are no grants available to assist you. The listing for the Odeon is the same classification as Mont Orgueil. Presumably there is an advisory panel and I would like to sit down with them and work out what criteria they work on, but certainly I have an open mind that would look at all the listings and why they are listed in certain ways and see if all need to be listed. Maybe we need to put more on and take more off, but yes, it is very, very difficult to list buildings when there are no grants available for pay for the upkeep.

4.2.11 Deputy R. Labey:

I am pleased that the candidate volunteered La Collette as a priority in her speech and I just wonder if she could expand more on how we transform it from the ugly wasted space it is at the moment to unlock its potential.

The Deputy of Grouville:

Before anything happens down there, I think we would have to move the fuel farm, which would be a very costly experience, but it is something that we need to start looking at now and start making capital provision for now, possibly moving the fuel farm to the Ronez site or somewhere like that, but this is something that we should be looking at to make provision. There seems to my mind an awful lot of wasted space at La Collette. Okay, industrial buildings have got to go somewhere, but the odd occasion that I have had occasion to drive down there, usually to see the fishermen or whatever, there seems to be that there is a menagerie of buildings and parked cars and surface parking, and to my mind, there could be a far, far better and very exciting design for there, but it is not going to happen overnight.

4.2.12 Deputy R.G. Bryans:

The candidate mentioned she has represented her constituents at appeals. Can the candidate give us her views on how she will work with the newly constituted Planning Appeals Panel role with Council should she be elected?

The Deputy of Grouville:

The Planning Appeals Panel would have an independent U.K. inspector and then the committee would be appointed to work with that person. Maybe there has to be a different committee depending where the property is situated, where it is appealed. It could involve the Constable of the Parish, for example. It does not necessarily have to be a set panel for every determination, but certainly there would have to be a U.K. inspector who then advised the Minister with recommendations, so I think that would work very, very well.

4.2.13 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

T.T.S. have authority to undertake any changes to main roads without reference to or liaison with the Planning Department. What is the candidate’s views on that?

The Deputy of Grouville:

I think it depends what kind of alterations the Constables say. If it is for every pothole, then I would not expect them to clog-up with bureaucracy like that. I suppose it depends what kind of alterations to the main roads they are doing.

4.2.14 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

A supplementary. I believe the work on Victoria Avenue would be a case in point, if that helps the Deputy.

The Deputy of Grouville:

If T.T.S. just went off and did that work on Victoria Avenue, putting in drains, maintaining the roads, if that is part of their remit, obviously I think most of us are fairly appalled by that work, by the expense. For the punter driving along, I cannot see the difference, but obviously there is difference, there are drains put in. I would expect some form of liaison with the Planning Department.

4.2.15 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

While not the responsibility of the candidate, is she aware that it took 5 years to get the Energy Policy, which was drafted, I think, 5 years ago, to the Council of Ministers? Would she not agree that that was an example of sclerotic, snail-paced decision-making, and while that was going on, consumers in the Island are probably paying about £15 million to £20 million too much in terms of heating or motor fuel? Does she not agree that sorting out the energy market might be an issue for the Minister responsible for competition, and if she is not successful in this post, would she perhaps join the working party to deal with the issues which she has raised, and does she not think it would be better not done by the Minister for Planning and Environment?

The Deputy of Grouville:

Yes, absolutely.

4.2.16 The Connétable of Trinity:

What is the candidate’s view on the success or otherwise of mixed developments, of owner occupier and socially-rented units imposed by previous Planning decisions? If elected, would the Deputy be prepared to revisit some previous permits?

The Deputy of Grouville:

I would certainly always be prepared to revisit if there is housing that seems to be not working in any way. My view is when we have got these developments for the over-55s, I do question them sometimes and I do wonder if there should be a mix of families and elderly people. The symbiotic relationship that they can have where you have got elderly people maybe looking after the children of young families, I think that is quite good as well, so certainly, yes, and owner occupier ...

The Bailiff:

I am sorry Deputy, you will have to come to a halt. That completes the questioning, so I will invite Members to return to the Assembly, including in particular the Deputy of St. Martin. Very well, we come now to the vote for the Minister for Planning and Environment. If you wish to vote for the Deputy of St. Martin, you press the P button; if you wish to vote for the Deputy of Grouville, you press the C button. The Greffier will open the voting.

Deputy S. G. Luce: 36	Deputy C. F. Labey: 10	Abstain: 3
Senator P.F. Routier	Connétable of Grouville	Deputy G.P. Southern (H)
Senator P.F.C. Ozouf	Deputy J.A. Martin (H)	Deputy M. Tadier (B)
Senator A.J.H. Maclean	Deputy of Grouville	Deputy M.R. Higgins (H)
Senator I.J. Gorst	Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)
Senator L.J. Farnham	Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré (L)
Senator P.M. Bailhache	Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)
Senator A.K.F. Green	Deputy of St. John
Senator Z.A. Cameron	Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)
Connétable of St. Helier	Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)
Connétable of St. Clement	Deputy R. Labey (H)
Connétable of St. Peter
Connétable of St. Lawrence
Connétable of St. Mary
Connétable of St. Ouen
Connétable of St. Brelade
Connétable of St. Martin
Connétable of St. Saviour
Connétable of St. John
Connétable of Trinity
Deputy of Trinity
Deputy E.J. Noel (L)
Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)
Deputy of St. Martin
Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
Deputy of St. Peter
Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)
Deputy of St. Ouen
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet (S)
Deputy S.M. Wickenden (H)
Deputy S.M. Brée (C)
Deputy M.J. Norton (B)
Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
Deputy of St. Mary
Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)
Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)

The Bailiff:

I declare the Deputy of St. Martin as duly elected.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

Could I just thank those Members that have confidence in me and assure them as the team, I am also looking for members of my Planning Panel in the future.

COMPLETION OF MINISTERIAL TEAM

The Bailiff:

What I can do formally now is to declare is that as the Ministerial team is now complete, the Chief Minister and the Minister are now formally are appointed to office. [Approbation]

Senator I.J. Gorst:

I wonder if I could just say a few words? I am always slightly surprised when I am elected that members of our community have put their trust in me. In fact, sometimes it seems easier to convince the electorate about a course of action than it does trying to convince my 5 year-old.

[16:15]

I know that today every Member is conscious of the duty that has been placed upon us by our Island and I am grateful for Members’ support today. Selecting one person above another is always difficult and I know how unfortunately it can sometimes seem divisive, but because of the challenges that we face over the next 3½ years, I have, no matter how difficult, needed to change portfolios and to create, in due course, what I hope the Assembly will support is new Ministerial officers. Arising from that, I should like to thank a number of individuals. I would like to start by thanking all the outgoing Ministers who have retired and for the support they have not only given me as Chief Minister but for the work that they have done in our community. There are 3 Ministers that I would particularly like to single out, however. The first of which is Deputy Kevin Lewis. I took the decision that to deliver efficiencies I wish to change that department and was sorry not to be able to put his name forward but I want to, on the record, thank him for 3 years of sterling service to this community. [Approbation] I particularly want to thank him for the way that he has supported his staff during what were very difficult times, particularly during the heavy weather and the flooding that we have experienced. I can confirm that I for one was able to sleep peacefully in my bed knowing that he had his yellow jacket on and his hard hat. [Approbation] The second is Senator Ozouf, who has served as Minister for Treasury and Resources for 6 years. He has, I believe, set great foundations for the future and I am extremely grateful that he has agreed to concentrate on generating our income line, which is going to be critical. The third is the Deputy of Trinity. Again, she has laid great foundations at Health, reforming in a way that I do not think many people thought were possible and those changes will now be dealt upon. I want to thank all Members who have given credible contest to my nominees over the last 2 days. Having said that, I believe we must now look forward and work together for the benefit of all Islanders. I have set out my priorities and I believe that together we can deliver on these priorities. As I have said, our system sometimes does not help Members to feel included and therefore, I will be bringing forward proposals over the next few days on how we can move forward in a more consensual and inclusive way. I want to improve engagement between Members. I believe that we should reinstate the States lunches. I want to involve more Back-Benchers in Ministerial oversight groups and I would like to create the equivalent of a Jersey 1922 committee to advise the Chief Minister. I am not complacent, but I am optimistic. I believe that we have a great future ahead, but only if we work together to deliver that future. Thank you. [Approbation]

CONSIDERATION OF CONTUINUING MEETING

The Bailiff:

Now, as Members are aware, under Standing Order 117A, it is my duty to invite Members at this stage, whether Members wish to continue or whether they wish to adjourn for a short time or whether to adjourn to another day before we move on to P.P.C. Now, the Assembly has already reached a decision but the Standing Order overrides that and therefore any Member can propose anything they wish at this stage.

Senator I.J. Gorst:

Sir, it has been suggested to me, I think perhaps rather helpfully, that yes, we should continue this afternoon with the appointment of chairman of P.P.C. but it might be useful if we had a simple, short break of 10 minutes, which would take us to 4.30 p.m. and we would then be completed by, I hope, 5.30 p.m. I do not know ... that, of course, may not be the case. If that Member proposing it decides to stand then we might end up at 6.00 p.m. but that is what I propose.

The Bailiff:

Members are content with that? Yes? Very well. Well, we will adjourn and reconvene at 4.30 p.m. Very well.

ADJOURNMENT

[16:30]

5. Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee

The Bailiff:

Yes, so the next matter on the Order Paper is the appointment of a chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee and I invite nominations.

Deputy J.A. Hilton:

Yes, please Sir. I am happy to propose Deputy Maçon for the position of chair of the Privileges and Procedures Committee.

The Bailiff:

Is it seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations?

The Connétable of St. Brelade:

Sir, it is my pleasure to nominate the Constable of St. Clement.

The Bailiff:

Is that seconded? [Seconded] Any other nominations? Very well. So we have 2 nominations. First of all, Deputy Maçon and then the Connétable of St. Clement. I invite the Connétable of St. Clement to retire. Yes, so Deputy Maçon, you have up to 10 minutes to address the Assembly.

5.1 Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I have held the position of the chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee for just over a year now and in that time my committee was successful in delivering several key pieces of work. In particular, changes to the Election Law, making the voting process more user friendly and modernising the vote.je website, which I was particularly impressed with and the inclusion of the videos of the hustings, which I personally pushed for and have received a great amount of positive feedback about. [Approbation] I brought to the States Assembly and gained support in principle for a Commissioner for Standards. The law drafting work is currently being progressed and will need to be presented during this term. My committee also presented to the States changes to the Standing Orders in order to give more flexibility to the Assembly, of which many gained support. Previously, I have also chaired the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel and sat for over 5 years on the Planning Applications Panel. The personal qualities that I believe this role requires are first and foremost to be impartial and to be independent. The role of P.P.C. is responsible for the standards of Members and it is incredibly important that if Members were to receive a complaint against them, they must believe that they will be dealt with fairly. I believe that I have been able to demonstrate this by being on things such as the Planning Applications Panel because that is governed by process and you have to go through procedures as they are laid out. That is something that I believe I have been able to demonstrate in my time. I also feel that the chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee must be approachable. There is a pastoral role in the role of the chairman of Privileges and Procedures in the sense that P.P.C. is responsible for the facility of Members. So if Members need support in helping them in delivering their work going forward, there has to be that ability for Members to be able to approach members of the committee to be able to have that dialogue to say: “I think we are struggling here. We might need a bit of support during this and that.” Therefore, committee members and, in particular, the chairman, must be approachable. Also, one of the key aspects is to be diplomatic. Some of the thornier issues that P.P.C. will have to tackle are matters which will need a chairman to be able to build consensus, to work with other Members, to bring Members together when sometimes it would appear that they have completely polar views and try to work together with Members in order to achieve that. In some areas, I have achieved that and in others we have been less successful but no less successful than much more experienced and seasoned Members than myself. What do I want to achieve over the next 3½ years? There is much to be done within the remit of the committee. The first thing that really needs to be done is to have a look again at the Election Law while it is still fresh in our minds and look at the processes and procedures about that experience to see where we did well and where we need to improve and make things better. The work that we had done previously concentrated very much on trying to make the whole process much more user friendly for the voter. I think we achieved a lot but I am sure there is plenty that still needs to be achieved. Also, I would like to change the Election Law to allow for international election observers to come to the Island and observe our elections. This has become an international standard and it is something which I think we should adopt. Not to suggest that there is anything wrong with our voting or electoral process but to show the rest of the world how it could be done and how it does work in the small jurisdictions as well. Ideally, I would like to be able to introduce online voting or at least begin by putting the framework in place. However, we need the eGovernment programme to be delivered first and up and running before we can attain that but that does not stop the framework from being put in place. We did amend the law to allow for the principle of online registration. The regulations do need to be completed and in order to do this; we do need to work with the Parishes and the Comité in order to draft that because the Parishes are responsible for the electoral registers. So there will need for that work to be done as well as the reminder cards to remind people that will now go to households just before any other general election to indicate to households whether there are people registered at a property or not. The design of the form and exactly how that is going to take place, that work still needs to be done. I would also like to concentrate on supporting Members; bringing out the best in Members to deliver for Islanders. This needs to be done by better communications and I thank - oh, he is not here - the Chief Minister for taking on my idea about the 1922 proposals so that he can better communicate with Back-Benchers. I also feel that there needs to be a review of Members’ facilities. What can be done to help Members now that we are having fewer Members in the Assembly? Members are going to be expected to contribute more to this Assembly with a reduced number. That might require a change in working practices. What we need to do on P.P.C. is consider how we can best facilitate that for Members. Of course, we will need Members to contribute to that process. That is something going forward. In the 2012 Jersey Annual Social Survey, 20 per cent of adults expressed the view that they simply do not know enough about the States Assembly to participate in elections. This value began to soar the younger the respondent. We need a supportive Minister for Education, which I believe we now have, in order to develop a plan to work with P.P.C. to better explain the States Assembly, the Members, the functions that we all do, not only inside the Assembly but also outside. However, I also believe that we need to better communicate with adults to address this. I think P.P.C. needs to be proactive in explaining what Members do and what they contribute to the Assembly to raise understanding and trust in States Members. One way in which we could do this, I would like to see a type of question time style programme to be developed and recorded and put online. This would allow the public more of an opportunity to express their views to Members and for many Members to be put under pressure and explain their views in public, forcing Members to research matters more thoroughly and in turn, raise the standard of debate within the Island and in the Assembly. I think P.P.C. could really change the culture of politics in Jersey if we endorse these initiatives. Why not? Someone has to take the lead. The Remuneration Review Body has also indicated that a pension scheme should be introduced for States Members and are currently working on proposals. The Chairman of P.P.C. will need to have the strength to bring forward this controversial matter, preferably quickly. Regarding the thorny issue of electoral reform, firstly I believe that P.P.C. needs to be made up of a broad church from the Assembly, a supporter of the “Yes” campaign should be on the committee as well as a “No” campaigner as well. I would want to hold interviews with other Members who may be interested in sitting on the committee as I would be interested to see what Members felt they had to offer in this area. I believe that electoral reform must remain within the remit of P.P.C. as this is a matter for each Member to vote on as these are a matter of conscience and as such, it cannot be seen to be an Executive project as with the introduction of collective responsibility, that pressure should not be in any way used to try and influence the matters on electoral reform. However, we have had a referendum result and we know that the automatic right of the Constable to sit within the States Assembly is clear and any form of reform is going to have to develop around this concept. We do, however, need to build consensus and if Members wish to reform the Assembly, the Members will need to work together and compromise. I welcome the Executive contributing to this process much in the same way as they did to the changes of the powers of the Chief Minister. I am willing to enter this debate with an open mind as my particular reference has just gone out the window and needs to start all over again. I have proved myself to be a hard working Member, to deliver, to be able to lead on controversial matters, I do not give in to threats, remain impartial and I hope that this has been appreciated by the Assembly. I would like to carry on my work as there is much that needs to be done and I look forward to Members’ questions. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff:

Just before questions begin, I think I want to make a ruling from the Chair. Yesterday, I allowed one supplementary question where a Member wished to ask it. I consider that to be very important. If you ask a question of a Minister, or anyone else, sometimes you feel that a follow-up question is there and then will hold the person better to account or will clarify the position, so I consider it to be an important part of holding a person to account. Therefore, I think that supplementary questions should be allowed with these meetings and that is a ruling I give. [Approbation] Very well. Yes, so I had seen first the Connétable of St. Lawrence.

5.1.1 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

I think that over the past 2 days, we have seen that open ballots play into the hands of the Chief Minister. Will the candidate undertake to remedy and return the process to a secret ballot?

[16:45]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I do not think it is right ... necessary for the chairman of P.P.C. just to say this and to say that. I think it is important that this matter is referred to consultation with Members and if there is a consensus among the Assembly I am more than happy to bring that forward but perhaps other Members are quite happy for the situation to remain open. But I am more than willing to conduct that piece of work and bring it forward if that is what Members want.

5.1.2 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

A supplementary. I request the candidate, if he is elected, to undertake that piece of work. Is the request of one Member sufficient for him to show leadership?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

It depends on the matter which is addressed to the chairman. I appreciate that the Constable clearly feels very strongly on this matter but in this particular matter to do with Standing Orders, I would want to have a wider consultation with Members.

5.1.3 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Time is our most precious commodity and while I am sure this new Assembly will use time more efficiently, in many parliaments the installation of a clock which simply counts up by second and by minute the amount of time that a speaker is speaking has been installed. Would the candidate agree for a trial for such a clock to be installed above your chair, Sir?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

No. I think Members are responsible adults. I think we have all been democratically elected here to say things by the public. If they are outside of Standing Orders and do not address what the particular debate or discussion is, then we do have rules in order to tackle that and I think we should treat Members of the Assembly as adults. Not only that, but remember in mind, we are not an official party political system when other parliaments there are.

5.1.4 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

May I have a follow up? The House of Lords is also not a party political, there are many independents, and that has a clock and does he really think that time has been used efficiently in terms of Members contributions in the last Assembly? Surely would this not be a simple way of knowing how long you speak?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I think Members know whether or not they have made a contribution which is worthwhile or not. I do not think the positioning of a clock would necessarily lead to what the Member considers what it will lead to. So I do not think that would be a useful resource for Members or public money.

5.1.5 The Connétable of St. Mary:

The candidate referred to the use of Members’ facilities. I am sure other Members who have travelled abroad will know what while our facilities may be adequate, they are certainly very sparse. They are of course funded by taxpayers and our guidelines, as issued by P.P.C., state that they shall not be used for any lobby groups or outside political organisations. But of course, this practice has gone on over the last 3 years at least. What is the candidate’s view on this?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

My view is that there is a good reason for the rules, which are constructed as they are. I would hope to have a balanced committee with all Members present so that, should there be transgressions of such rules, they could be enforced within the Assembly.

5.1.6 The Connétable of St. Mary:

Supplementary. This matter has been brought to the P.P.C.’s attention in the past 3 years. The rules have existed for some time and yet the P.P.C. failed to either amend the rules or to stop the practice. Does this not demonstrate a weakness on behalf of the chairman?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

No, I do not believe it does. I think in that regard my committee was split. When we did consider these matters, unfortunately certain Members who should have been there, were not and therefore where we should have had a proper decision, it did not happen, despite raising it on a few occasions. Going forward, I would want Members who are on the committee who would give an undertaking to attend the meetings of P.P.C. so that in these situations we get to a resolution.

5.1.7 Senator L.J. Farnham:

The candidate mentioned online voting, which has to be at least a medium-term objective. How does he feel about electronic voting in the polling booth?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

My committee did receive approval from the States Assembly to investigate this particular aspect. Guernsey, in fact, in the 2016 elections will ... my understanding is, will have electronic terminals in order to vote. It is certainly something that is on P.P.C.’s radar. There are many advantages to this particular aspect in that one could have polling stations all over the Island that anyone, no matter where they lived, could go and visit and cast their vote, provided that you have the secure system in place so that people therefore could not then online vote in other places. So there are benefits in an electoral terminal form but the work in order to establish how the system would work would need to be done over this term. I think it is an area that could be taken forward and my committee did receive approval to do that.

5.1.8 Senator L.J. Farnham:

Supplementary. Would the candidate undertake to follow that up? I want to ask if the candidate is in favour of it.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Yes, because I think there are many ... again, looking at the voting process and making the voting process as user friendly for the voter as possible, I think having those types of systems in place is a step forward in our system and is something which I think would be good to achieve but with the caveat of the usual things, of costs to having the system in place and all these types of things, which of course, are a consideration.

5.1.9 Deputy M. Tadier:

On the issue of open ballots for Ministers, would the current chairman emphasise the rationale, which is that openness and transparency and accountability to one’s constituents trumps any suggested cowardice that States Members might have by not following the courage of their convictions because they are too scared of what the Chief Minister might do if they vote the wrong way.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Perhaps I would not have phrased it in that particular manner. [Laughter] I think there is a point there and bearing in mind that that argument was made by former Deputy Pitman, who did manage to get the Standing Orders changed, it would appear that the Assembly at that time took that to be of greater importance and until that matter has changed that is the situation about where we are.

5.1.10 Senator P.F. Routier:

Being a Member of this Assembly is a privilege and we all have various privileges here but we also have responsibilities to behave in a responsible way. From the experience of the candidate, does he have any thoughts on the need to strengthen the rules today if they have a complaint brought to them to deal with perhaps a Member who may not have been accused of not behaving responsibly? Does he consider there needs to be any strengthening of the rules that the committee abides by?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Do I think P.P.C. should have more tools in the toolkit? Yes, I do because if there is a transgression there are very limited things that P.P.C. can do, not only in the first instance but if it is reoccurring. Yes, I do think that that should be there. What that should be, I would not wish to pretend that I had answer, which I could just magic-up but it is something that I think does need to be worked on. However, we do have the introduction of the Commissioner for Standards, which I think is essential in providing an independent inspection process.

5.1.11 Senator P.F. Routier:

Just a supplementary that the answer was ... he was not prepared to perhaps commit to a recommendation for the future but to have just an inkling of what would be an idea to strengthen those rules.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Not at the moment and that would require further review and that is an honest answer.

The Bailiff:

The Greffier has just advised me that that was a false alarm. [Laughter] It did seem a very quick period, I must say. Deputy Le Fondré?

5.1.12 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Does the candidate agree with me that while the last 2 days have been long, they are important for democracy given that we are electing candidates for the body that is going to spend £700 million a year or does he think that the system for appointing Ministers should change and if so, how?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

In a sense, I suppose, I am partly to blame as to why we have the current system as we did considering how I voted during the previous rounds of how to reform the process. So I agree with Deputy Le Fondré. I think the Assembly, at the time when forming this process, felt that it was very important that Members should be tested in the Assembly on their abilities and qualities and policies that they were proposing in order to allow for the Assembly to have the final say on who is going to be in charge of the Ministries, not only delivering the budget, but also discharging the responsibilities for Islanders and for the Island.

5.1.13 The Connétable of St. Brelade:

Can the candidate give comfort to this Assembly that, if elected, he will bring forward proposals expediently for electoral reform based on the referendum result. As he stated, if he is not in favour of the Chief Minister’s Grand Reform Committee and what would be his first move in this regard, if elected?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I do believe it does need to be a priority of the P.P.C. Committee, however, as I have outlined, there are plenty of other tranches of work which also need to be delivered on and I do not want to spend the next 3 years going around in circles, talking about ourselves and electoral reform and not delivering on other things in order to deliver services for the public in order to develop States Members so they can deliver matters for the public. How expeditiously can it be? I think we have a window of opportunity of about 18 months, possibly less, in order to work on this particular matter but it depends how long it takes in order to build consensus within the Assembly.

5.1.14 Deputy J.A. Martin:

I think part of my question may have been asked by Deputy Le Fondré and maybe I am looking at it differently to the Constable of St. Lawrence, but would the candidate undertake to consult with the new Members and because of ... it might be democracy but what has gone on over the last week of elections and the ... obviously the slate has been elected, would the candidate consult with new Members to look to make this how we perceive from now on, as I think the other candidate will.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Why would I restrict it to just new Members? Of course I would invite any Member of the Assembly if there was a consultation going on about Standing Orders, I would not single-out just new Members. I, of course, would want the entire Assembly to contribute to that particular piece of work. I do think there is a support role with P.P.C. in supporting new Members into the Assembly and how they can deliver that and that certainly would be something which I would put as a priority.

Deputy J.A. Martin:

I did mean consult with all Members. Those Members were not in the House when we voted last time.

5.1.15 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

I am following on from the question from the Constable of St. Brelade. We have had a referendum result, which must be respected, and whatever electoral reform moves forward from here must be one which retains the right of the Constables to sit in the States automatically. What that does not help us address easily is the under-representation of St. Helier in the Assembly. So moving forward on electoral reform, does he consider that it should be a priority for the other States Members seats to be distributed in such a way that achieves as close as we can get to voter equity by redistributing the other seats but respecting the rights of the Constables to sit automatically in the States? Does he consider that a priority and how would he like to move forward on that?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I do think that having fairer representation of the population within the Assembly is a matter that does need to be worked on. That, to me, tends to suggest we do need to look at how the Deputy seats are made up. I would not want to just single-out St. Helier because I do think there is an issue around St. Clement as well as the problems between St. Lawrence, Grouville and St. Peter, which, again all have very similar populations. So, I would not want to say only for one Parish because I think you need to look at the broad system across the whole aspect but I do think that perhaps we might be able to find some consensus of reform around the Deputy seats.

5.1.16 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

Supplementary. I thank the candidate for his answer and I agree entirely with it. Would he consider the role of an independent boundary commission to help assist with that distribution so that, to a degree, it can be taken out of the hands of politicians, who obviously have an interest in perhaps preserving their own seats, and I include that in St. Helier, where I think we should be open minded to having our districts within the Parish completely redrawn so there is not too much imbalance for the other Parishes.

[17:00]

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Once we have decided upon the number of Members that you want and how it is going to be apportioned within the various Parishes or districts, it is not particularly rocket science about how it should be split up. So whether that remains within the realm of P.P.C. or whether an external body is brought in, whether that is a boundaries commission or perhaps an academic in order to do that piece of work, that aspect is not particularly controversial and I would not see that as being a particularly difficult thing to bring forward if that is how Members wish to proceed.

5.1.17 Deputy G.P. Southern:

It is a different version of the Constable of St. Mary’s question, which is will the candidate commit himself to withdrawing this absurd ruling that says members of an officially recognised political party cannot have political meetings on the premises? It means, effectively, that if 3 of us get in a room and shut the door, we are having a meeting of the parliamentary party and we should be banned.

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

No, but we might need to look at that particular aspect because if that is that situation whereby States Members, who happen to be of the same political view, start meeting together and you run into perhaps these type of absurdities, then perhaps the rule needs to be amended, but I do not think necessarily it should be scrapped entirely because these are public-funded facilities, which should not be used out of hand for external political lobby groups, as are the rules which are laid down by P.P.C.

5.1.18 Deputy G.P. Southern:

We are not an external political body or a lobby group; we are a political party concerned about doing politics. Can we not meet each other in this building?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

I can only offer what I have already said in that because of that situation perhaps the rules do need to be amended in order to support that particular matter, if that is a concern for the Deputy.

5.1.19 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As we are all Members of this Assembly, whether we are Ministers or Back-Benchers, does the candidate feel that instead of breaches of the various codes, respecting Members and Ministers, should there be one body to rule on this? Rather than the Chief Minister deciding on whether his Ministers have broken ... or whether P.P.C. decide for Members generally? Should there be one body dealing with discipline and breaches as a whole?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

What I do believe is there should not be duplications within both codes and that is where P.P.C. has always struggled in that much of the standard code for States Members is replicated in the Ministerial Code of Conduct and therefore we have always found ourselves in this particular impasse. What I have already been trying to dig-out is to find out where the review of the Ministerial Code of Conduct has gone because I think if that were particularly clarified and simplified with regards to applying to Members and to take out some of the duplication that occurs, we would all be in a much clearer understanding, if there is a breach, to who it is responsible and who makes that decision. What I would like to see however is the investigation process for both things to be used by the Commissioner for Standards, because I think that would be an effective and efficient way of dealing with the matters as well as keeping them independent and impartial.

5.1.20 Deputy M.J. Norton:

I shall be quick. The question time that you mentioned as a candidate there, would you not consider that question time road shows, particularly between the 16 to 20 age group, where there was a lack of interest during the elections, would be a good idea within schools?

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

Do I think it would be a good idea? Yes, I do think it would be a good idea but I think it has to be supplemented in addition to a decent educational programme, which must go alongside in order to educate, not only our young people, but also our adult population in order to get a better understanding of this Assembly. I do not know if I misunderstood the Deputy’s question.

Deputy M.J. Norton:

No, you have not at all but given that it was no surprise that 16 year-olds were voting this last time.

The Bailiff:

Sorry, Deputy.

Deputy M.J. Norton:

It is fine.

The Bailiff:

Very well. So I will now ask Deputy Maçon to withdraw and we will ask the Connétable of St. Clement to come back. Very well. So I invite the Connétable of St. Clement to address the Assembly.

5.2 The Connétable of St. Clement:

Firstly, can I thank my proposer and seconder and also those who have encouraged me to stand for this important role? Many Members will realise that if elected I will bring to the job experience and knowledge built up over 31 years in this Assembly. As a Back-Bencher, as a president of several major committees, as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, a member of a shadow Scrutiny Panel and as an Assistant Minister and of course, as a member of the Privileges and Procedures Committee for the past 3 years under 2 different chairmen I would like to have the opportunity of building upon the good work that those 2 chairmen have done. I see the providing of information to the public about the work of the States, the Council of Ministers, the panels as a priority. I see the re-engagement of the public by doing those things as an important priority. A continuous education programme, if you like. The Greffe did a magnificent job with the vote.je programme [Approbation], leading up to our recent general election. We must not let this go; we must build on it and enhance the experience of Islanders in the processes of government. Our Members will have received on their email this afternoon that the States Assembly now has a Twitter account. [Approbation] We are indeed engaging and the next step, certainly, I think has got to be a Facebook account. We shall see. [Laughter] Talking about vote.je, I was struck by the fine quality and ease of use of the hustings on video on the website. It was a very welcome addition. We need to examine and examine quickly if there would be value in extending this facility to panels and committees who have at least got part of their meeting open to the public, indeed, and perhaps even more importantly, to the States meetings themselves. In fact, I would go one step further and would like to see live streaming of States Assemblies [Approbation] into the future. The technology exists and it is available in many Parliaments and Assemblies throughout the world and I do not see why we should be lagging behind, particularly if we want to re-engage with the public. Since we lowered the voting age to 16 great efforts have been made to engage with the younger members of our society. But those of us who were at the polling stations all day on 14th October could not help but observe how few teenagers utilised their franchise. Quite honestly I do not think this will change massively, but as chairman of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association local branch I have observed first-hand the benefits and excitement at the Jersey Youth Parliament, and the value of enabling youngsters to attend the Commonwealth Youth Parliament in different parts of the world. Therefore, I see part of the role of P.P.C. to assist and encourage the fledging Youth Parliament being organised by young people themselves, and under my chairmanship the P.P.C. would certainly support the new Minister for Education in that initiative. I turn reluctantly, and with some trepidation, to the matter of States reform. It cannot have escaped Members notice that we have had a referendum and the Island, for good or bad, overwhelmingly supported the keeping of the Connétables in the States as a right. [Approbation] We must respect that decision. We must build on that decision and work together to find the solution which has evaded us for so long. With one issue resolved we now need to tackle the future of the other roles: Senator and Deputy, and also how we will resolve the issue of proportionality and equality of representation in the light of the referendum result. This will not be as easy as some Members might think. I say to the Chief Minister that this function of reform falls full and square on the shoulders of the Privileges and Procedures Committee. I want no part of a Reform Grand Committee, whatever that might mean. [Approbation] However, if elected to the chairmanship of the committee I will work with a grand coalition of Members, including the Chief Minister and officers from his department to seek out the solution which is fair, understandable, and meets the aspirations of the Members of this Assembly, but more importantly of the public. The Privileges and Procedures Committee has of course many other responsibilities, not least being the champion of the provision of Members services and facilities. One of the facilities which I feel is missing or has been for the past few years is the lack of opportunities for Members to meet together informally. Members might be surprised how many issues can be resolved informally, misunderstandings sorted and enlightenment gained by informal meetings, and there are ways I am sure this can be done. Another role of the committee is to keep under review the practices and procedures of the States. Now, I cannot help but wonder how many Members believe that the last 2 days and the next 2 days have been very effective. There might be a better way of appointing Ministers and indeed panel members, as we will have to do next week. I hope there is a will to find that better way, that more effective way, more efficient way, because there are alternatives and I would like to engage with Members to find the better ways. To establish if perhaps Members are totally content with the way things have been carried out today and yesterday and next week, or to engage with Members to see if we can find a consensus on a better, more effective and more efficient alternative. Thank you. [Approbation]

The Bailiff:

We now have up to 20 minutes of questions.

5.2.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

As a Member of this Assembly for some 31 years the Constable has served in a variety of capacities in this Assembly, including from time to time chairing this Assembly. If successful as president of P.P.C. would he be willing to talk to you, Sir, about when you might not be available to chair the Assembly, follow in the great tradition of very senior Members, and upon your invitation, accepting the presiding of the Assembly from time to time which might be a compromise to the previous proposition which has been lodged?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I am always happy to talk with the Bailiff on any subject. But of course this matter is already covered by the States of Jersey Law where it says quite clearly that if the Bailiff or Deputy Bailiff is not available to chair the States Assembly he can call upon - and it is in this order - an elected Member or the Greffier or Deputy Greffier. The Senator is quite right and the Bailiff did invite me some months ago to chair this Assembly. I did it for about 10 minutes, where he quickly rushed back. [Laughter] I am not entirely sure if this was because I was doing a very bad job or perhaps I was doing the job a little bit too well. [Laughter]

5.2.2 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

May I just indulge upon a supplementary? I accept what the Constable says. The compromise is, however, to find a role where the Bailiff can continue to preside over this Assembly but also that the functions that the Presiding Officer - which perhaps the Bailiff is unable to do - in relation to raising standards can be done. Perhaps he would ask Sir Lockwood Smith, who is coming on Monday, his experience of raising parliamentary democracy from the New Zealand Parliament, his view may be enlightening us.

[17:15]

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I am all for raising the standards of democracy and the standards of debate and so on. But I have to be honest with the Senator, I do not see any failings of democracy or the quality of our Assembly under the chairmanship of the Bailiff. [Approbation]

5.2.3 Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

The question I am asking is similar to the one I have asked the previous candidate. Does the candidate consider that it is important for democracy that this Assembly does have the power to appoint and test Ministerial candidates for the body that is going to spend £700 million a year, i.e. Ministerial appointments? In the candidate’s speech he did touch on that and so what I would just like to ask is to elaborate on his views on how that system might be changed, and specifically how it will improve the democratic process?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

There are many ways that Ministers can be appointed. In other places of course we know that - an obvious example is the United Kingdom - it is totally at the will of the Prime Minister. The Clothier proposals made 14 years’ ago - and still I think could be valid today - was that the Chief Minister after his election proposes a slate of Ministers who are then elected or not elected by the Assembly. Another alternative would be for the Chief Minister to propose his potential Ministers, as he has done today. But even if there were no second candidate they could still make a speech and asked questions. This might be a way of discouraging those who knew very well of the fact that they were standing simply for the sake of it and to get the questions into the proposed Ministers. It might be a way of improving the efficiencies. There are other ways of doing it if Members feel that they wish to make a change, or if they are perfectly happy with the way it is being done now. But if I am elected, during my term of office we have got a little bit of time to do this, I would wish to engage with Members to consider whether we should change the system or not.

5.2.4 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

I was really glad to hear in his speech the candidate use the words “fairness” and “equality” while talking about electoral reform. He and I represent the 2 Parishes which are currently most under-represented in the States at the moment so I would like to ask him how he envisages progress being made on that front to improve the proportionality within our electoral system, bearing in mind we have just had a referendum result which must be respected?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

Yes, as I said in my speech the referendum result absolutely must be respected. The committee now has to sit down and do some sums, if you like, to work out how proportionality can be maintained. But there is another slight complication: the people have spoken quite clearly on the position of Constables, what they have not done is spoken quite clearly on the roles of Senator and Deputies. We as the Privileges and Procedures Committee, and we as the States Assembly, need to think very carefully about how we proceed, bearing in mind that fact as well.

5.2.5 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

The candidate has raised a very important point there. Moving forward then, what role would he see for potentially further Mori polls into what the public appetite is for reform in the aspect of Deputies and Senators? Does he believe that an independent boundary commission could potentially play a role in making sure that the numbers in terms of proportionality are as good as we can get?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I am not sure about a boundaries commission, certainly electoral commission to advise on these issues. Mori polls, I am not too excited about that, because when we did have the Clothier proposals some 14 years ago there were a number of Mori polls and selective polls in the local paper and so on. They were quite interesting and you could find one which would suit your own personal point of view. What the public was saying - if you analysed it properly - is that they wanted to keep the Senators in the States, keep the Constables in the States, keep the same number of Deputies but reduce the number of States Members quite considerably.

5.2.6 Deputy M. Tadier:

Have a general election day I think is the other one that is normally added. Does the candidate agree that part of the problem, whether one fancies the slate option or the individual elections as we have had currently, is that we have a previous Assembly binding the hands of a future Assembly? It seems entirely possible that the current Assembly may well have been happy to vote for the Chief Minister’s slate before because that is what happened this time, although one never knows whether that would have changed. So is there a way for a new Assembly - when they are appointed and sworn-in - for them to decide whether they want to vote for the Chief Minister’s slate or to face individual elections for those Ministerial positions and not base it on an old Assembly which currently is not constituted?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I think the difficulty with previous Assemblies making decisions for the future ones is that we are only elected for 3½ years and unfortunately we are not elected for life. Quite honestly I do not think that would be practical. I have not thought about it but really we are already 2 days into this first Assembly and we have not got around to appointing the chairmen of the Public Accounts Committee or Scrutiny Panels yet. So I think to have a debate firstly on how we are going to do these things would not be terribly efficient. We have to make up our minds on what is an efficient way and we are the ones that the people have elected in the last month or so, so I think our decisions should be respected.

5.2.7 Deputy M. Tadier:

I probably did not explain correctly. What would be envisaged - and it is just one idea - is that when a new Assembly sits the first question they are asked is: “Do you accept the Chief Minister’s slate, yes or no?” If the answer is yes then they are appointed, if no then we would proceed to individual elections as we have just done today. So it could not be any longer than today but it could be considerably shorter, and that would be entirely in the hands of the new Assembly.

The Connétable of St. Clement:

That really is a matter of detail and if it is a proposal which the Deputy will want to make seriously it is something the committee should consider and report back on.

5.2.8 The Connétable of St. Lawrence:

In a similar vein, we have seen the changing process to the election of Ministers inasmuch as the ballot is now open. In my view that has played over the last 2 days into the hands of the Chief Minister. I do not like to use the term but he has had his slate elected. Does the candidate agree and, if so, would he undertake to reverse the process to a secret ballot as part of the proposed changes?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I tend to agree with the Constable. The advantage of a secret ballot is that no Member is under pressure, not beholden to anybody, and can vote absolutely with their conscience and can tell every candidate that they have voted for them. [Laughter] But on the other hand - and of course this was argued when we changed the position from 3 years ago - is that we do proclaim to be open and transparent. So you have this dichotomy, have you not, you have the difficulty of being open and transparent which is good and right, with the potential of pressure to vote in a certain way. I think it is a debate that needs to be had, in view of what has happened in the last couple of days, and again it will be a matter for the Privileges and Procedures Committee to bring a proposition to the States for debate.

5.2.9 Senator L.J. Farnham:

The Connétable spoke briefly before about how we are embracing technology. I wonder what his views are about the utilisation of electronic voting in the polling booths for the future, and would he undertake to pursue that should he be successful?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I think we are little bit away from electronic voting in our general election. The technology is probably there, the vital thing of course is security. When we are satisfied that electronic voting from home or wherever can be totally and 100 per cent secure then we do it. But I do not think we even think about it before that.

5.2.10 Senator L.J. Farnham:

Just to be clear, I was not referring to online voting but electronic voting with electronic terminals in the polling booth, which are more advanced and secure than online voting and would provide for accurate and faster results and more accessibility around the Island.

The Connétable of St. Clement:

It is something which quite honestly at the moment I do not know enough about to comment, but I would certainly be prepared to investigate it.

5.2.11 Deputy G.P. Southern:

The candidate has referred to young people voting and their remarkable large absence from the polling stations. Would he undertake to develop a fair, representative and appropriate way of giving access to 16 year-olds in schools or colleges to real live politicians, because at the moment we are by and large banned from going into schools?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I am not aware that States Members were banned from going to schools. In fact I missed an assembly today at St. Clement’s Primary School. As far as I am concerned politicians are invited into schools. I will ask the Minister for Education when I have the opportunity if I am wrong. Certainly youngsters at primary level and at secondary level are very welcoming to this Assembly too. We have the primary schools assemblies and, as I mentioned, we have the Youth Parliament as well and we encourage youngsters to attend the Commonwealth Youth Parliament which this year has taken place in South Africa. But the principle of communication with young people, of course, yes.

5.2.12 Senator P.F. Routier:

It is a privilege to be a Member of this Assembly and with those privileges come the responsibility to behave in a certain way. During the candidate’s time on the P.P.C. there have been claims that some Members have not been behaving appropriately. Does the candidate feel that there could be some enhanced rules which would assist the P.P.C. in dealing with these complaints?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

One of the most difficult jobs, if you like, that I found as a member of the P.P.C. was dealing with complaints about colleagues in this Assembly. That is why the States I think have already agreed in principle to the establishment of an office for a Commissioner for Standards who will, once appointed, advise the committee and will take responsibility for deciding on whether the code of conduct for Members has been broken by any particular Member once complaints have been received, and what the appropriate sanctions would be. I really think it is very difficult for any Member or any group of Members to sit in judgment on a fellow Member. That has always been a great difficulty to me and that is why I am pleased that a Commissioner for Standards will be appointed in due course.

5.2.13 Deputy M.R. Higgins:

As all Members know, but the public do not know, any questions that are submitted for Ministers or propositions are presented to the Bailiff for approval before they are done, and the Bailiff sees if it is in accordance with Standing Orders and also is lawful, et cetera. Is it a case, in the candidate’s view, that this should be left to Members to bring whatever questions and propositions and if there is a dispute that just comes through the Greffier, that if there could be a problem that it could be reviewed and determined by a group of peers, perhaps from P.P.C., to see what the problem was? So in other words, it is making it more democratic so elected Members determine what questions and propositions are brought before the States, rather than an unelected Member?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I was not aware that there was a particular problem in this area. Certainly when I have presented written questions the Bailiff of the time has improved it considerably, put it into English. I think it is important, is it not, that the question asked is the one that the Member wants the information about and, as the Deputy said, it has to be legal. But, as I say, I am not aware there were any particular problems in this area but if there are and I am chairman of the committee I would be quite happy to look into it, understand what those problems are, and find a way - if there is a way - of resolving it.

5.2.14 The Connétable of St. Brelade:

Much is being made of the process over the last couple of days of electing Ministers. The candidate has used the words “open and transparent” in terms of the process we have gone through. But does he feel that it is open and transparent that Assistant Ministers are appointed as a given and not elected to this Assembly?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

Yes, I do. I think the way the Assistant Ministers are appointed is absolutely correct. Because if the Minister is to do his job in the interests of the Island and the interests of the people, the person or persons that will work with him as Assistant Ministers have to have his absolute trust and respect. If we start foisting Assistant Ministers on Ministers who they do not trust and respect then that is a recipe for disaster. [Approbation]

[17:30]

5.2.15 Deputy S.Y. Mézec:

I think in the aftermath of the referendum those who were on opposing sides are probably at their most conciliatory now, which means there is a window of opportunity that should be seized to make sure we have a reform that satisfies both sides. In the spirit of that, would the candidate pledge to form a Privileges and Procedures Committee that is genuinely inclusive and includes people from all sides of the political spectrum and has fair representation from both St. Helier, the country, and a representation that will be balanced and able to achieve something that will satisfy as many Members of the States and the public as possible?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

I wonder about this word “inclusivity” sometimes, whether it means if I am not on it, it is not inclusive. But seriously, of course, yes. It is vitally important. In fact the constitution of the Privileges and Procedures Committee in Standing Orders leads you down that route because I think it is 3 Members who are not either Assistant Ministers or Ministers, 2 who are, and one who represents the Chairmen’s Committee. So you already have that built-in. But the answer is yes, of course. What we want to do is to bring forward reform proposals which have the support of the majority of this House quite significantly. But also, of course, we want people on the committee who will be able to debate vehemently and strongly, but at the end of the day accept the majority view, and even if they cannot vote for it at least give some support to the people who have the majority.

5.2.16 Senator P.F. Routier:

The candidate spoke about the excellent work of the Greffe during the recent election time and the vote.je website. Does he think that all that promotion helped candidates to keep their election expenses down?

The Connétable of St. Clement:

Well it certainly did in one case. [Laughter] But I remember a number of years ago when it was agreed that the States would fund the brochure, if you like, with the candidates’ manifestos in them. The idea was to save the candidates having to produce manifestos. That part has not worked but I do think that the booklet that the Greffe produced was very helpful to electors. [Approbation] Not designed to save Senator Routier and his fellow candidates money but to give information.

The Bailiff:

Very well, that concludes questions to the Connétable so we will now ask for Deputy Maçon to return to the Chamber. We now come to the electronic vote. If you wish to vote for Deputy Maçon you vote P, if you wish to vote for the Connétable of St. Clement you vote C. The Greffier will open the voting.

Deputy J.M. Maçon: 13	Connétable L. Norman: 33	Abstain: 2
Senator Z.A. Cameron	Senator P.F. Routier	Deputy G.P. Southern (H)
Connétable of St. Saviour	Senator P.F.C. Ozouf	Deputy M.R. Higgins (H)
Deputy J.A. Martin (H)	Senator A.J.H. Maclean
Deputy of Grouville	Senator I.J. Gorst
Deputy J.A. Hilton (H)	Senator L.J. Farnham
Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré (L)	Senator P.M. Bailhache
Deputy K.C. Lewis (S)	Senator A.K.F. Green
Deputy M. Tadier (B)	Connétable of St. Clement
Deputy J.M. Maçon (S)	Connétable of St. Peter
Deputy S.Y. Mézec (H)	Connétable of St. Lawrence
Deputy L.M.C. Doublet (S)	Connétable of St. Mary
Deputy R. Labey (H)	Connétable of St. Ouen
Deputy S.M. Wickenden (H)	Connétable of St. Brelade
	Connétable of St. Martin
	Connétable of Grouville
	Connétable of St. John
	Connétable of Trinity
	Deputy of Trinity
	Deputy E.J. Noel (L)
	Deputy of St. John
	Deputy S.J. Pinel (C)
	Deputy of St. Martin
	Deputy R.G. Bryans (H)
	Deputy of St. Peter
	Deputy R.J. Rondel (H)
	Deputy A.D. Lewis (H)
	Deputy of St. Ouen
	Deputy S.M. Brée (C)
	Deputy M.J. Norton (B)
	Deputy T.A. McDonald (S)
	Deputy of St. Mary
	Deputy G.J. Truscott (B)
	Deputy P.D. McLinton (S)

Deputy J.M. Maçon:

May I be the first to congratulate the Constable of St. Clement, and thank Members for my freedom. [Laughter]

The Bailiff:

So I do declare that the Connétable of St. Clement is the new chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee. [Approbation]

The Connétable of St. Clement:

Can I thank Deputy Maçon for his kind words and thank the Assembly for the confidence they showed in me today. Thank you.

ADJOURNMENT PROPOSED

Senator P.F. Routier:

I propose the Adjournment until Tuesday, that we will come back and continue with the ...

The Bailiff:

Yes, apparently the next meeting is next Tuesday and the matters on the Order Paper at present would be the appointment of the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, chairmen of 5 Scrutiny Panels, and chairman of the Overseas Aid Commission. The question then is when the Assembly wishes to meet to choose Members, which clearly cannot be the same today, it has to have time to ...

Senator P.F. Routier:

Could I suggest Friday as being an option for Members to consider?

The Bailiff:

Does the new chairman of P.P.C. wish to say anything? [Laughter]

The Connétable of St. Clement:

My electronic gadget is turned off, Sir. I was not allowed to use it so it is impossible to look at the calendar just at the moment. But it has to be Thursday or Friday, has it not?

The Bailiff:

Is there a consensus?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Is it possible to keep it flexible? If we do manage to do the panels then we could do it on Thursday, if not Friday.

Senator L.J. Farnham:

I think it would be helpful for Members diaries for next week if we agreed today and I would bring a counterproposition for Thursday.

The Bailiff:

Shall we take Thursday first? The proposal is that we should convene on Thursday then in order to consider the constitution of the various panels, having chosen the chairmen, on Tuesday. Does that have a consensus or would everyone like a vote? Standing vote, all those in favour of that proposition? Those against? That is carried. Very well, we will reconvene, therefore, on Tuesday to carry on with the remainder of this Order Paper down to the appointment of the chairman of the Overseas Aid Commission, then we will adjourn until Thursday at which time we will select the members. Very well, the Assembly will rise.

ADJOURNMENT

[17:36]