Sir, several Constables have to step through to the Royal Court for a licensing at 10.00 a.m.; I just wanted to say that is why we will be slipping out.

The Bailiff:

Provided the mass exodus does not render us inquorate it is an in-committee debate and so that should not prove any difficulty at all, Connétable, thank you.

1. External Relations Common Policy Report (In-Committee) R.124/2022

The Bailiff:

As Members will know, this morning has been fixed for an in-committee debate. Accordingly, the matter is within my discretion, and I will draw it to a close at 12.35 to enable the arrangements of future business to occupy the last 10 minutes of the scheduled sitting for the morning. The matter will be opened by the Minister for External Relations.

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf of St. Saviour:

The Chief Minister is going to make some opening remarks and then I will follow, if I may.

The Bailiff:

Yes, that is perfectly acceptable if that is the arrangement between you. In which case, the matter will be opened by the Chief Minister, the Minister for External Relations will then follow. The difference between an in-committee debate and a usual debate, all the rules apply but Members are allowed to speak more than once. So although we will put the 15-minute clock on in the usual way, as a recommendation, it may be that Members will feel that they do not wish to speak on any one occasion for more than 10 minutes and then they will have another opportunity to do so. That is simply to allow more people to participate in different areas of the discussion. There will be no vote taken and the Minister for External Relations will sum up at the end, after the last individual has spoken. It is up to 12.35; naturally if we finish sooner we finish sooner. That is a matter for Members. Then we will start with the in-committee debate and I call upon the Chief Minister.

1.1 Deputy K.L. Moore of St. Mary, St. Ouen and St. Peter:

In July, in my speech for this role, I explained that I believed our Island, through this elected Assembly, needed a new approach. I stood on the principles of an accountable and responsible Government that would prioritise restoring trust and confidence and one that is focused on the necessary objectives of delivering action on climate change and providing all Islanders with the right skills and training so that they can have sustainable jobs. A public sector that will deliver the support and services that Islanders want in health and education and social security, with taxes and charges spent efficiently and cost effectively. Jersey is a small island with a relatively small domestic market that requires an economy that is open and outward facing in order to succeed. Over the centuries Islanders have always enhanced the prosperity of Jersey through exports, historically in goods like our world-famous Jersey Royal potatoes and Jersey cows; subsequently, by welcoming tourists and latterly by building a global reputation for trade and business and professional services. Members of the public may ask why is this relevant to them and their families. Well, this has meant that the Island has created a better standard of living than would otherwise have been the case. The COVID pandemic and the actions of the last 4 years has intensified the need for this Assembly to build a clear vision and direction for the Island. My vision is that Jersey is an outward looking Island that is proud of what it achieves but that the benefits of this prosperity are shared by all. This means that we must build a new consensus, a new collective vision and shared future for our Island. The vision must be long term, ambitious but realistic, taking account of the world around us. I believe Members want to see an ambition that takes account of what is a rapidly changing world. A world driven with a better understanding of inclusion and how the proceeds of growth are shared more equally and fairly. That understands the responsibility we have to look after the environment. My vision is that the Assembly leaves a legacy of an Island that is in a better position at the end of our term than at the start. An Island that shares the collective vision for the future. That embraces the breadth of talent and skills that our unique Island has. Yesterday, at the first sitting for public business, we started on this road when I am so proud that the Assembly considered a bold set of proposals to deal with the current. and we hope short term, cost-of-living crisis. Yesterday we agreed unanimously an unprecedented 2 per cent cut in social security contributions, substantial increases in tax allowances, a bold increase in the community cost bonus together with other allowances that will help people through this coming winter. Before the election many Islanders who spoke to Members who have been elected and are here today had clearly lost faith and confidence in the Assembly’s ability to respond quickly and to make decisions. Yesterday we gave Islanders real evidence that things have changed. Our proposals, which were promptly prepared and lodged for consideration before the summer break, were then carefully and swiftly scrutinised. In yesterday’s debate there were appropriate challenges following which the proposals were unanimously adopted and brought into legislative effect. Now we turn today to another first, an in-committee debate in which I would like to thank Deputy Morel, in his former role as chair of the Scrutiny Panel, for proposing it. This debate will consider the future work of External Relations during the term of office. This is a fundamental in promoting the Island’s interests. The post of Minister for External Relations was created in 2013. The Minister for External Relations’ responsibility is to conduct external relations concurrently with the Chief Minister in accordance with the common policy on external relations, which is important that the common policy is properly informed by the views of Members. Apologies, the common policy is one that is approved by the Council of Ministers. The original policy has been in place since the Ministry was created and I have asked that this policy is reconsidered and today I am looking forward to Members’ input as it will be invaluable in informing the priorities for the next 4 years. I wish to commend the excellent work of Deputy Bailhache and Deputy Gorst who have served in this role previously. They have been supported by their outstanding team of officials. We have built strong partnerships and have an external relations function that is able to represent Jersey’s interest effectively and robustly across a range of issues of importance, both to Jersey and to the wider international community. This work must and will continue under the stewardship of Deputy Ozouf, with continuing support from Deputy Gorst, myself and indeed the entire Government and this Assembly. Members have been presented with a policy report as a background, agreed by the Council of Ministers, which we hope will be useful for Members. Our debate today, however, should not be confined to the contents of the report. I hope that Members will put forward their thoughts and ideas on areas that need to be considered for inclusion in Jersey’s external relations common policy. Where should we be prioritising our efforts and resource when presenting Jersey’s interests across the world. It is important that the common policy is properly informed by the views of Members before it is finalised by the Council of Ministers. We are seeking a policy that achieves broad base support and consensus so that we have the confidence that is representative of Jersey’s best interests. The common policy frames the intention underpinning Jersey’s external relations engagement both historically and constitutionally. It gives broad policy objectives, highlighting the topics and issues that will form the focus of our external relations engagement setting out our primary partners with whom we will seek to work with, and international bodies with whom we will engage. The common policy sets the direction of travel and the parameters within which the Government will act when engaging internationally on behalf of the Island. We have an opportunity to review our past endeavours, enhancing our core relationships with our closest neighbours and seeking to forge new links.

[9:45]

I look forward to the input of Members today as we seek a common policy that serves the interests of Islanders. I nominated Deputy Ozouf to continue the work of external relations as our Minister. Like other Ministers, he has secured the confidence of this Assembly and, as Chief Minister, I fully intend to hold him to account. With these opening remarks I would now like to hand over to him to lead what I hope will be an informative positive debate and that matters for the people that have elected us.

The Bailiff:

It is now for Deputy Ozouf to speak and I have Deputy Ward listed to speak after him.

1.1.1 Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf:

May I thank the Chief Minister for her opening remarks to this in-committee debate and providing some context for what I hope is going to be a first but a very useful and informative debate? The Chief Minister set out a vision for promoting and protecting Jersey’s interests internationally. It is a vision I share, and I have the responsibility to deliver it and a responsibility I take very seriously. But it is a responsibility that is adjusted and tempered and informed by the views of Ministers and, most importantly, Members of this elected Assembly. The Island’s international engagement has grown significantly in breadth, depth, and importance in recent years. My predecessors in this role have built strong foundations for the establishment of the Ministry for External Relations and I would like to publicly recognise both of those predecessors who are Members of this Assembly today as Deputy Bailhache and Deputy Gorst. They did important and strong work in their period of office. Now, perhaps more than ever, we are perhaps more aware that external events can shape and change and affect our Island. External Relations continues to work hard to manage relationships affected by decisions that are taken outside of this Island, most importantly in the United Kingdom and the decision to embark on a withdrawal from the European Union. That has had important implications, as Members will know, for all sorts of areas that affect Islanders’ lives. The External Relations Ministry in the last 4 years has also dealt with the unbelievable world-changing events that arose as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. They should be recognised and thanked for the work that they did in, for example, the repatriation of Islanders that were caught here during the outset of that pandemic. The global tectonic plates shift more and, as we hear from the radio and television broadcasts overnight, the issues of Russia’s war against Ukraine are affecting our global community. Our Island has had to respond quickly and effectively to deal with some of the issues that have arisen, namely the sanctions that have been levied against individuals as a result of that campaign. It has had an unbelievable amount of work, but we have shown how strong, effective and responsible we are in being part of that global community affected by issues that happen outside of our Island. We need strong and positive relationships with all sorts of jurisdictions to address those challenges, those that we know, those that we expect, and those that we do not yet know. We also need to use that changing world to seize the opportunities so that we can benefit our own Island community and those that have elected to serve them. I would say that the role of External Relations has therefore never been more important today as it has in the past. The direction that we set for External Relations, that this Assembly and the Council of Ministers sets for External Relations, will be important in how we deal with those global challenges, those global opportunities and, most importantly, in all of that, in how we preserve and maintain and enhance our Island’s reputation in the coming years ahead. Jersey has always cultivated strong relationships with other jurisdictions. We are an Island encircled by the sea, and therefore with a small domestic market, as the Chief Minister said, means that we have to trade in order to achieve prosperity for our community. We have done that by building friendships, by building partnerships with all sorts of individuals, countries, organisations, institutions for profit and not-for-profit institutions over many years. Over the centuries we have grown successful industries in goods, in cider production, knitting, our world-famous Jersey cow, Jersey new potatoes, and many more. More recently, we have excelled in the export of services. Promoting our international identity and creating a positive reputation and profile has become critical as we are recognised as a responsible global island community. We need to promote what we do well and that is key to our ability to developing new and existing relationships with people and organisations overseas. The issues we face as an Island are of course those issues which are shared by many in the international community. The rising cost of living, the housing crisis, employment, skills shortages, migration, population demands, these are all global problems, but they need innovative, joined-up solutions and right-size approaches for this Island. External Relations will work with colleagues across Ministries and Governments and Scrutiny Panels and the membership of this Assembly as a whole to develop targeted and creative responses to the challenges that are being felt right now by the people that we serve. We will facilitate meaningful engagement with other countries and Governments, ensuring that we have an opportunity to share knowledge, to learn, to follow best practice, help shape global best practice where we can, to find solutions that are right size for our Island. This Assembly has the opportunity to debate for the first time the common external relations policy. A policy that will be informed by the debate today. The discussion will be appropriately reflected in the final policy that is presented for consideration and approved by the Council of Ministers. There are 3 pillars which underpin the work of the External Relations Ministry: our enduring relationship with the United Kingdom, our close partnership with France and Europe, and developing relations outside in the global world. For centuries, the most important relationship has been and remains that of the United Kingdom. As set out in the preamble to the common policy, Jersey’s distinct and unique constitutional position binds us to the English Crown through history, when the great seal of the Duchy of Normandy was unified with the English Crown. Events of last week, as we have seen for the first time, the televising of a meeting of the Privy Council, saw that power and how it is actually discharged in a constitutional monarchy. It is important that our relationship with the United Kingdom is safeguarded, is understood and well-looked after in the next 4 years. External Relations takes the lead role in managing Jersey’s relationship with His Majesty’s Government across a whole range of policy issues. The United Kingdom is also our biggest trading partner, with trade in goods and services totalling last year £7.1 billion. It is also the jurisdiction that Islanders seek further education in the large part where almost one-third of our Island population was also born. The United Kingdom is our sovereign partner in international agreements and is responsible for representing Jersey’s interests in, for example, the E.U. (European Union) Trade and Co-operation Agreement, a matter which has been of great importance, particularly for our fishing community. This indication, this example, shows the very complex nature of discussions we have. The fishing issue is a complex issue which the Minister for the Environment is dealing with. With the Crown, the Jersey Government through the Ministry of Justice has access to parliamentarians, and it is important that we build relationships across all parties with the United Kingdom. The team in the Jersey London office drive this work, they build ties across Parliament, and they support the Jersey Government’s department’s engagement with their U.K. (United Kingdom) counterparts. This includes a broad set of initiatives, a broad set of policy objectives in health, education, environment, sustainability, financial services, taxation, broader economic matters, to name but a few. At the same time, we have now our own international trade unit, which is responsible for securing Jersey’s participation in what is now a new responsibility that the United Kingdom has of dealing with trade policy with third countries. Something which it did not have since 1973. We are determined to ensure that, as appropriate, Jersey is a partner with the United Kingdom in those emerging trade agreements which have been struck with third countries across the world. The second pillar, France, and wider Europe. We must respect, care, talk about our deep and historic ties with our nearest neighbour, France. The second language of this Assembly has for many years been French. I will not attempt to address this Assembly in French in this dealing with the second pillar, but it is important that we are both English but also French too in our history. Our road signs are in French. Many of our families, including mine, owe our heritage to a Norman tradition in other places, also importantly our Breton tradition. We must remember that France is also today and, in the future, an important voice in the European Union. The Council of Ministers is determined to bring new energy to this relationship with France. We want to create, if I may say, a new entente cordiale, a respectful arrangement with France, as we grow our friendships with particularly our regional partners in Normandy and Brittany, something which the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture and the Minister for Children and Education I know is joining me in that endeavour. We recognise that this engagement also, to be effective, must be in tandem with our other Island bailiwick, the Bailiwick of Guernsey. That is why we maintain a joint office from across the Channel Islands in both Caen and we will be undertaking visits jointly in Paris in the next few weeks. That shows a commitment to the Channel Islands being unified in our engagement with France and other countries around the world. The Ministry of External Relations has a dedicated European relations team and that again is done in tandem with the Channel Islands office in Brussels. That helps build a diverse network of bilateral relations for Jersey and the Channel Islands with national governments across Europe. Europe is important to Jersey and the Brussels office is an important part of our engagement and our relationship in building contacts with the European Union. It reflects our proud history of our part in the European family and our longstanding neighbour of being a good neighbour policy with both France and Europe as a whole. The sizeable diaspora of communities from Europe is massively important to our Island. That draws upon the strengths of our diaspora with both the United Kingdom, Europe and elsewhere. The Government of Jersey’s work across Europe and more wildly is done through External Relations and our excellent links with the network of the United Kingdom network of embassies and high commissions. The third pillar I would like to address is that of the relationship that Jersey has with the rest of the world. The global economy shifts south and east and we must pursue and secure opportunities for growth with the future economic powerhouses. Over the next 30 years average growth in the advanced economies is predicted, that is maybe before the cost-of-living crisis issues, was predicted at 1.4 per cent. But it was 3.4 per cent in those emerging growth areas of the world and particularly in developing economies. If Jersey is to remain prosperous it is crucial that Jersey is both visible and active in these emerging centres of global wealth creation and political influence. The work of the global relations team within External Relations is therefore vital in developing government to government links to support Jersey’s objectives overseas and raise the Island’s profile in jurisdiction where until now perhaps the Island has been less well-known. The issue of human rights is also something rightly which has commanded the attention and discussion among Members in recent weeks. Jersey should remain aligned to our sovereign partner, the United Kingdom, and to the other democratic nations of the world, particularly the United States and other partners in the E.U., which we share that common democratic tradition.

[10:00]

It is often said that the key effective diplomacy is the ability to speak with those that sometimes you disagree with. Our collective belief is that to achieve progress on human rights, particularly in the countries with a known poor record, that constructive engagement at both political and business and third sector levels is important. Change cannot be achieved by simply withdrawing from discussions. The U.K., as our sovereign jurisdiction, has of course a primary role in this in the membership of the international bodies, perhaps most importantly and visibly seen in the last 24 hours with its role at the United Nations and the United Nations Human Rights Council. We have established relations and there is a role for Jersey to raise the issues of human rights, as appropriate, in private, in meetings, but reflecting our support for rights-based freedoms across the world. I will not shy in the dischargement of my role as Minister for External Relations in advancing the principles of justice and fairness that we have in common with both the United Kingdom and the democratic institutions and countries of the world. Jersey’s reputation supports the broader role of External Relations in protecting Jersey’s reputation as a responsible member of the international community. External Relations has a dedicated international compliance team which is focused on this important task. The team covers 3 broad areas of policy and operations. Firstly, financial sanctions and implementation and that is responsible for ensuring our timely and comprehensive implementation of U.K. sanctions. Secondly, in playing a key role is to prepare our role for Jersey’s assessment for the Financial Action Task Force, an international agreement called the F.A.T.F., and its standards, which are going to be assessed by the MONEYVAL report, which we have heard a lot about, and which really matters in terms of our international standing and reputation. The compliance team leads on the extensive international treaty network and conventions to Jersey, most recently working with colleagues in environment and policy departments to secure the extension of the Paris Convention and the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women respectfully. These are important issues which matter, that are agreed internationally, and we incorporate them by this Assembly’s decision for adoption of international treaties. External Relations takes a key role in co-ordinating the Island’s approach to engagement with all sorts of international multilateral organisations such as the O.E.C.D., (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development), the I.M.F. (International Monetary Fund), World Bank and of course the Commonwealth. This all ensures that Jersey’s engagement with bodies helps to protect the Island’s good reputation, an Island that is proud of what it does, is trusted and is responsible and can be a trusted international partner in what we do in terms of trade and services. Of course I could not make these opening remarks without a mention - an important mention - of the distinct role of the Ministry for International Relations and the important work that Jersey Overseas Aid does, and the important work that the Minister does with her team in helping shape a positive view and a better understanding of Jersey in the international community, quite apart from the humanitarian effort which is undertaken by the work of the Minister and her department. That is not part of External Relations, it is not part of External Relations for good reason, because there should be a separation between aid and trade. I hope the Minister appreciates the fact that there is a distinction. We share many common opportunities. we share many common dialogues, and we will work together respecting the individual role that we both have in serving this Island internationally. To achieve the best outcomes in the areas that I have covered, External Relations works closely with other departments and other arm’s length organisations, such as Revenue Jersey with the O.E.C.D. in international tax matters, the Economy Department, Jersey Finance, Digital Jersey, Jersey Business and all the opportunities and challenges that trade and economic growth opportunities present. We also have a responsibility to engage with the departments that deal with arts and heritage and that we pursue a collective view on cultural diplomacy. The common policy must reflect the full framework within which External Relations will work over this term of this Assembly of 4 years. It will inform how we prioritise the areas on which we engage, how we work to facilitate the achievement of cost-cutting objectives which this Assembly sets, and always in the best interests of the Islands, taking account of Islanders and stakeholders’ views as we focus and engage on the endeavours that we do. The common policy report, which I have tabled in advance of today’s sitting, sets out a summary of those areas and I very much welcome Members’ contributions, thoughts on the documents that have been presented. I would like to express my thanks to the department that I have inherited, not only for the work that they have done in preparation for this debate but their continuing work in listening to this Assembly’s debate today, in hearing the observations of Members and, in the next 4 years, in championing Jersey’s reputation and our identity globally. Jersey’s external relations work is important. Jersey is regarded as a modern, co-operative, effective democracy. An Island and an Assembly that does not shirk from its global responsibility and, if I may say, does be rather a bigger jurisdiction than our size would present in all sorts of ways. Because of the work of my department and the direction that we will set as a result of the discussions today, I believe that we can, as the Chief Minister said in her opening remarks, mean that Jersey can continue to thrive and prosper with a common vision on all sorts of issues but importantly today on an important issue of external relations and what the external relations policy says. I hope that Members share my passion for Jersey’s international ambitions. I hope they share the hopes and dreams and ideas, and I look forward to listening to the contributions during the course of this debate.

1.1.2 Deputy R.J. Ward of St. Helier Central:

I wanted to speak early because it gives an opportunity to look at some of the wider generic things that have been mentioned and I thank the 2 opening speakers for their words because it gives us something to think about. I have been through the document so I will probably deal with some of the areas in turn so you can follow if you want to.

The Bailiff:

Excuse me, could you just pause a moment? Did you just take a photograph? [Aside] Even so, you really should not use a camera within the Chamber. Please do carry on.

Deputy R.J. Ward:

This notion that Jersey as a responsible global citizen I think is a ... sorry, my technical device seems to answer sometimes so I do apologise. It has a world of its own. A responsible global citizen, and I am going to start off and I will come back to, the most responsible part of our citizenship of this globe is our role in tackling climate change because that is the one existential threat ... well, unfortunately even this week’s news it may not be the only existential threat that we are facing. But is one that is so important that we have to face up to. It is interesting that Deputy Ozouf said the words, and I jotted them down ... now, obviously I cannot find them. We are a bigger jurisdiction than our size represents. I think if we take that attitude to our role in climate change in tackling that then we will be in a better position. In terms of the Jersey brand, it is interesting we talk about that, and we do have a particular brand that goes around the world, and it is interesting whenever we travel and meet people from elsewhere or in the U.K. and speak to family that they know the Jersey cow and they know the Jersey potato. It is interesting, I think it will be something for External Relations to look at, the ownership of our potato industry, for example, because the main companies now are U.K.-owned, I believe, that are selling potatoes and they are feeding in. I think there is an opportunity that was missed of that to be taken control of by the States which would give us greater ability to look at ways, look at conditions, look at the actual methods of farming as well. I think that is something that External Relations and other areas of the government need to look at very carefully. The role of External Relations with our arm’s length organisations needs to be absolutely transparent. I think we need a greater understanding of what that interaction is. I have had concerns over our arm’s length organisations for some time in terms of the drivers behind them. We often have this issue of saying it is not a political issue. But what we have is an ideological debate to be had around our arm’s length organisations. Are they simply going to be working to the whim of the free market, and that is the drivers that are going to be behind them. If that is the case, let us be transparent - purely transparent - about that. Or is their role going to be more a social role providing for the needs of Islanders that Government should be taking on. Remember, I believe that the first role of Government is about the safety and well-being of its citizens. Clearly, on Brexit, it has affected our ability to trade independently, and I have huge concerns over food standard rules. Deregulation seems to be something that is very fashionable, dare I say, with the U.K. Government, in the name of getting rid of red tape. What we use is regulation over standards, and standards of our food, for example, needs to be watched very carefully. I will not be the first person to talk about bleached chickens, for example, but we need to have some influence over the trade deals that are happening if we are going to genuinely talk about a uniqueness of Jersey, a uniqueness of the products that we produce and the products that we import, and our proximity to France and the European continent. Those trade deals I am concerned that we will just follow because we do not have the influence that we think. That is going to be a very difficult role for External Relations, to have an influence when, if you like, we do not have an influence. So that is something we are going to have to look at very carefully. We need to be very clear with our relationship with France on this. Since I moved to the Island over 20-something years ago, I can see that our relationship with France has changed. Our visits to France are not as frequent, it is not as easy, it is not the same as when we started which was one of the wonderful things about Jersey. What is the role of the Minister for External Relations with that relationship with France and this Assembly? That needs to be made clear as well. That leads us on to global relationships. Where will our moral compass be? That is such an important question because we cannot hold our head up high globally if at key times the market overrides the need for human rights, and that really is something we need to address. We are aligned to the U.K. and it does seem to be a real drive in the U.K. to lead the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights. Now if that is going to influence Jersey, I do not think that is a good thing. I think that is where some of the conflicts will come and we need to look very carefully and work very carefully. The Assembly needs to be fully involved in that, and the Assembly needs to understand our relationship with the U.K. and its impact on us because of that. That leads on to how we treat migrant workers. In the document that accompanied this in-committee debate, there was talk about a C.Y.P.E.S. (Children, Young People, Education and Skills) connection with China, for example. Now China does have a questionable record on human rights and so we need to be very careful about those relationships and how they will be worked up because I am certain that any impacts or any image of China from the Chinese Government will not want to talk about those. The other point I will go back to, I come back to the climate paragraph which states 2050. The paragraph on climate change states that we have adopted the citizens’ assembly. Well, the citizens’ assembly prefer the target of 2030, not 2050. That is important if we are going to consult with the citizens’ assembly in the way that we have and this Government is all about consultation and talking to people. That was a process that was properly done, in my opinion, that we have now not gone to 2030 for, well, reasons I do not really know.

[10:15]

2050 is not an adequate target and I think the rest of the world will wake up to that very soon. Then there is our role in genuinely sustainable finance, not greenwashing. We have to be very careful that anything that we do, it is not just there to improve external relations by looking like we are doing something. It has to be effective, and it has to be the right thing to do and this is the opportunity for Jersey to lead the way on the world stage. Let us hope we can take that. We have that constant battle between growth, which has been talked about constantly, and climate. We may, we will, and we do have to recognise that constant growth is not necessarily the target that we will have if we are genuinely going to protect the climate and adapt to climate change. How that growth comes and what that growth means is something that has to be addressed. I encourage openness and inclusion of all Members in the role taken externally. It cannot just be an image created by one or 2 Members of this Assembly. It has to be shared and it has to be consistent. That leads us to a couple of things to finish. We are not a sovereign state, as is stated in the document. This needs to be clear and this needs to be understood and it needs to explain and interact with how we identify ourselves and the identity that Jersey has in terms of its role and its relationship with the sovereign state of the U.K. In a world of increasing division, how will we welcome everybody, and how will we ensure that difference is valued and adds to our community, adds to our relationship with other countries, and adds to our identity rather than it being used as a toxic method of division? That has shown itself, it has shown itself a little in some of the election campaigning from some, thankfully not elected, but we have to be very careful about the way that we do that. There is not an opposition between Jersey as a person and whether you are born here, you have moved here, or whatever, and that difference and that diversity of our community. Those things need to work together, and we need to be realistic about existence as an Island, must mean that we can all come from many different places. So those are just some initial thoughts on some of the areas here. It is difficult to know entirely what the Minister wants. I hope that is constructive in some way just to look at those different areas. I do not intend to speak again because I do not think we all want to go on for too long but just as some initial thoughts and I hope they are helpful.

1.1.3 Deputy L.J. Farnham of St. Mary, St. Ouen and St. Peter:

I think there is some very comprehensive food for thought put before us here and I wanted to ask a number of questions. The Minister is not in the room but hopefully he is listening. Looking back at the common policy on external relations from October 2012 which was annexed to the report, I want to first talk about independence. While it stated clearly that it is not our policy to seek independence from the United Kingdom but rather to ensure that Jersey is prepared if it were in the best interests for the Island to do so. Now this has been sort of hanging over us for some time and I think we need to put it to bed at some stage. Given the opening speeches by the Chief Minister and Deputy Ozouf, I think it is very clear that we are looking to, in some instances, rebuild and re-cement our relationships with other countries. Our future prosperity relies on being an outward-looking jurisdiction, it relies on international trade. I think the question of independence needs to be dealt with in the next policy to give some certainty. There is a little bit of uncertainty hanging over it just from the wording - Deputy Ozouf is back now - that says, while it is not the policy to follow that, we should be prepared to do so. I think that should hopefully be cleared up in any new policy document. French travel, there is also some reference to French travel, and of course it is essential we improve our links. We do have good sea links with France, it is just they go at the wrong times currently. Also, it is essential that we ease the entry requirements for our French visitors, and I hope the Minister will work with the Minister for Home Affairs on that subject because that is going to be essential as we rebuild our links and our tourist industries with France. This is a comprehensive document, and the Minister for External Relations will literally be representing, not just the Assembly, but just about every other Ministers’ portfolio when we are trying to develop our interest with other countries and jurisdictions. I think it is important there is no room for any sort of juxtapositioning to take place or duplication of work. International trade, the Minister will work closely with the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture. Of course, we have the important MONEYVAL assessment coming up which will report on our compliance with international standards, so I am sure his officials will be working closely with the other officials, but we must avoid duplication, if possible. I fully support the Chief Minister and Deputy Ozouf’s comments. I think we have seen the External Relations team really develop and I really believe we have a strong, professional team there, but of course we need to make sure that team is the right size, and we are not sort of duplicating work and of course utilising funds we could use for other projects. Also, I just wondered what the Minister’s views were on working closely with the Minister for International Development. That is a relatively new position and I think the Minister has done a fantastic job with that. That really dovetails nicely with the overseas aid work. I suppose that work was part of the External Relations’ brief beforehand and what are the Minister’s plans for the future of that role? Is it to continue to support the Minister or is the policy likely to look to merge that as we move ahead?

1.1.4 Deputy S.Y. Mézec of St. Helier South:

In Reform Jersey’s manifesto we have a section dedicated to where we saw Jersey’s place in the world which would outline what approach we would have in this term of office towards external relations policy. In that document, we refer to things like advancing some of what Deputy Ozouf mentioned in his speech and in the report as well about promoting the Island overseas and using our industries and expertise, not just to generate prosperity for us to enjoy here in the Island, but to advance causes on combatting climate change and eliminating poverty, something which we absolutely have the capability to play a positive part in. Jersey Finance’s report on green finance provides a very good blueprint on that, in our view. We also spoke about the role that we were playing, and continue to play, in opposing Russia’s war of aggression in Ukraine by freezing assets and applying sanctions, something that we have done extremely well and must continue to do. We spoke about continuing to support the fantastic work that the Overseas Aid Commission is doing to change lives in many places around the world affected by natural disasters and war. We spoke also of course about strengthening relationships with our neighbours. Deputy Ozouf mentioned that a lot in his speech and of course we support that. There is more that can be done to have engagement with the regional governments in Brittany and Normandy. It feels like we say this all the time but there is much more we could be doing with our neighbours in the Channel Islands as well. So, to see much of that in this comprehensive document is very pleasing. You note that as an annexe to this report is a previous common policy on external relations from 2012 and it is much shorter than the main body of text in this document. That is good because it shows this external relations policy developing, it being more comprehensive. I am, I think, pretty pleased in pretty much everything that I read in that report but there are a couple of omissions which I wish to raise, and Deputy Ozouf knows exactly what subjects I am going to get at here. The first of those follows on from what Deputy Farnham was raising. If you read the previous 2012 policy on external relations, it refers to: “Observing the recommendations of the second interim report of the Constitution Review Group”, and “noting that it is not government policy to seek independence from the United Kingdom, but rather to ensure that Jersey is prepared if it were in the best interests of Islanders to do so.” There is no specific reference to that in the new external relations policy and so I want to ask the Minister directly: is that because that is no longer the policy of the Government? If it is no longer the policy of the Government, may I say to him, good on him, because it was wrong to have been in that previous policy, in my view. Jersey is British, it should stay British, and any discussion about becoming an independent country is misguided. It is not in Jersey’s interests to do that and talk of it is unhelpful. Jersey’s security and prosperity is helped by our constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom, that as a sovereign state in Jersey, not as a sovereign state. That does not mean within that framework we do not have room to strengthen and enhance our autonomy to deliver what is best for the Island but were we to go down a route of drastic change to that constitutional relationship, it would not be in Jersey’s interests. So, if that is no longer referred to in the main text of this report for that reason, I hope the Minister for External Relations will say that loudly and clearly. Perhaps if there is a redraft of this document at some point, or a second version of it, that it could perhaps be made clearer in that document there, and that would be a great relief to some of us. The second issue that I wish to raise in this is the issue of Jersey’s approach to human rights internationally. Now, Deputy Ozouf mentioned constructive engagement, and of course we agree with that. It is mentioned in this document about Jersey being essentially tied to the U.K. policy and approach on engagement when it comes to human rights internationally. Bearing in mind what I have just said about our constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom, that is obviously appropriate that we do not depart too much from that. But I refer Members to the final line in the section in Reform Jersey’s manifesto, the section on external relations which says: “Lastly, although Jersey’s foreign policy is aligned with the U.K., we will not take part in any positive publicity for representatives of regimes with unacceptable human rights records.” Now, of course you have to talk to people you do not like if you are to do a good job in politics. Of course, you have to have constructive engagement and sometimes boycotting, and disengagement is the wrong thing to do. Not always but sometimes it is. But I have to say that I have felt deeply unpleased at times in recent years where I have felt that Jersey’s Government has gratuitously provided positive publicity for people whose hands are dripping in blood because of the role that they play in their countries. It is perhaps not a well-known fact that when the previous dictator of Saudi Arabia, perhaps one of the most evil people on the planet, second maybe only to the dictator of North Korea, when he passed away, our Government sent a letter of condolence to the Saudi Government. That was not done in my name. I wish for the downfall of the regime in Saudi Arabia because it is evil and plays a horrible role in the world in supporting those who wish to stoke conflicts and harm people in some of the most terrible conditions in the world. I am thinking in particular of the humanitarian disaster in Yemen, so we should not have done that. In multiple instances since then, we have received press releases, we have seen the photographs of our representatives’ shaking hands with representatives from other dictatorships as well. Now, of course we should have relationships with those countries, of course we should talk to them, of course we should find where there perhaps is leverage we can apply through business to encourage those countries to improve their records.

[10:30]

But is it really necessary to plaster up pictures of us smiling and shaking hands with people and providing them with positive publicity when it does not come with a line in that press release saying: “We raised the issue of human rights in this jurisdiction. We were deliberately using our power, whatever that may be, we are of course a small territory, to encourage those jurisdictions to go in the right direction.” Because that, I think, looks opportunistic to not do it, it looks like we do not care, and it looks like we are just in it for the money, and I do not think that that is the right thing to do. Connected to that, again, was the issue that the Minister raised about the distinction between aid and trade. I was very lucky yesterday evening to spend some time alongside the Minister for International Development, who I am very happy to say I think does an excellent job in her role, hearing from an organisation which provides medical support for people in the Gaza Strip, a place which can very fairly be described as an open-air prison where people are treated horrendously and the situation exacerbated by the illegal blockade that is imposed on it by its neighbour. We, as well as many other places in the world, are doing excellent work to support vulnerable people whose circumstances are not their fault and not their choice. I also remember a few years ago Ministers from Jersey meeting with the Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a city which is illegally occupied; half of it certainly is. Its status is not recognised by the international community, it is not recognised by the United Kingdom whose policy we are allegedly aligned to. A fundamental role of the municipality of that jurisdiction is to commit crimes, it is to commit ethnic cleansing, it is to remove people from territory which is their home illegally and supplant them with other people. That is a crime and should not be happening, yet our Ministers went to speak to this illegal role that cannot be recognised internationally, but at the same time we are supporting our Overseas Aid Commission to provide support for the victims of those crimes. That is a contradiction to say that we will provide positive P.R. (public relations) and build relationships with people who, a fundamental part of their role is to commit crimes against people who, with another hand, we are providing aid to. Is that consistent? I think it is not. I think that, yes, you separate aid and trade. You do not say to jurisdictions: “We are not going to help you unless you politically do what we want you to do.” But there can surely be a connection between supporting those who are playing a direct role in the suffering and misery that you are trying to alleviate with the work you do through the Overseas Aid Commission. That is inconsistent and a different approach could and should be adopted there. Those are very serious issues that I am raising, and they are issues which Jersey will never have the ability to solve on our own. They require much greater international resolve to deal with them. But Jersey can surely have a clear conscience on these matters if we adopt a better approach than we have done previously. So, when the Minister for External Relations speaks later on in this debate, I want to hear from him, yes, a reiteration of all the good stuff that is in his report, and all the good stuff that he said earlier on, and perhaps elaborate on points that I and other Members will make in this debate on that. That is something to be positive about. But I also want him to clarify the point that is unclear in this report about the Government’s position on Jersey’s constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom and disavowing the previous statements made by previous Governments that seemed open-minded about the possibility of a drastic overhaul which is not in our interests and is not what the people of Jersey want. I would like to hear a commitment from him as Minister that he, in his work in representing Jersey, and trying to generate prosperity for this Island, that he will not do so in a way that provides positive P.R. to human rights abusers and dictators, and does not engage in actions which contributes to the causing of the suffering that we are trying to alleviate with the brilliant work that Overseas Aid is doing.

1.1.5 Deputy C.D. Curtis of St. Helier Central:

My thoughts are about the possible addition to the common policy report. I emailed a contribution in response to the report and I will just go through that again now. The themes of engagement rightly include subjects such as health, co-operation, international trade and climate. I suggest that we should add another section about well-being and happiness. My thinking is that we could learn from other jurisdictions like Finland, which have a high happiness rating. Our Better Life Index score for civic engagement, for example, is very low and we could learn from other regions. They could benefit from knowing more about our high rating for community. Understanding where other jurisdictions excel could help us to develop effective policy and I thought this could be a useful addition to the common policy report.

1.1.6 Deputy R.S. Kovacs of St. Saviour:

As Deputy Scott, the chair of the Economic and International Affairs Panel, said the other day it would have been good to have the Ministerial plan published prior to the presentation of the common policy document to understand better how the objectives contained therein will be met but will follow up on this for sure with the panel later on. In the meantime, I want to say that the document is well-presented but I have a few points on which I would like to have further clarification, so if the Minister would kindly want to take note of the few questions I have and respond at the end. In the document it is mentioning about building relationships with other jurisdictions. Is Jersey looking to branch out to build these relationships and, if so, with which ones and how? Also, besides fixing the problems, the challenges that Brexit brought, how can we maximise on any opportunities that emerge from Brexit? Still linked with that, how is the global shortages of workers across hospitality, construction and agriculture being addressed? To touch on point 39 from the report, can the Minister explain how the report related to a cultural diversity centre? What is the plan, including on expanding collaboration within this cultural diversity centre with the honorary consul network, the embassies, and the communities in Jersey and what the expanded plan would be?

The Bailiff:

Mr. Attorney, you have indicated a desire to speak. Do you have legal advice you need to offer to the Assembly?

Mr. M.H. Temple Q.C., H.M. Attorney General:

It was not legal advice, but I had exchanged emails with the Minister for External Relations. I just wish to make a point to him and to the Assembly which I thought would be helpful in relation to the policy that we are considering.

The Bailiff:

Well, in which case, can I suggest that we take you in turn when the time comes?

1.1.7 Deputy L.M.C. Doublet of St. Saviour:

As a humanist, I was heartened to see human rights mentioned in the report and to hear the Minister committing to promoting human rights. Of course, so many of the previous speakers, I think it is clear that this is something that is really important to us in Jersey. But it is not just about encouraging others to have human rights as a matter of importance in their countries, Jersey also has areas that we need to improve on. I do wish that Deputy Tadier had been here because I often have some really interesting conversations with him around human rights, and I do feel that he is somewhat of an expert among us. So I would encourage the Minister to perhaps seek Deputy Tadier’s input when he returns to the Assembly. One of the treaties that I was particularly pleased to see mentioned in the report was C.E.D.A.W. (Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women). Of course, this is something that myself and other Members have campaigned for. Another Minister managed to get that treaty extended to Jersey in the previous Assembly, for which I am very grateful. Of course, women’s rights in many jurisdictions around the world are in a shocking state and, for instance, many women and girls have no access to education, they have very poor healthcare, including around pregnancy and childbirth. Some are prohibited from owning property or earning a wage and not to mention the extreme violence and abuse faced by many women and girls around the world. In Jersey, we are taking steps towards having a truly equal society, and I am really proud of the progress that Jersey has made in the last 8 years. As I understand it, the extension of C.E.D.A.W. to Jersey, it is not the end of the road there but rather a beginning. I think we have to demonstrate that over time we are complying with parts of that. So, I wonder if the Minister could touch on that when he responds because I am interested to hear what the next steps are and perhaps, Deputy Labey, I wonder if she will be talking about this. I hope she does because I am interested to hear what is next there. I would really like to see Ministers working together around this because of course in Home Affairs that is very much a priority for us. I think Jersey needs to work towards being exemplary in how we approach gender-equality. Another area of human rights that I am concerned about is freedom of belief. Again, as a humanist, I am aware that many countries simply do not permit freedom of belief for their citizens. Indeed, some humanists have been put to death because of their beliefs and those with other beliefs also. So, I would like to know if that is something that is on the Minister’s radar and that he will promote that. The final area that I would like to highlight is L.G.B.T.Q.+ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and others) rights as another group who can often suffer extreme discrimination and, again, in some countries face the death penalty. The Minister and myself are both proud members of the L.G.B.T.Q.+ community, and I know that he will agree with me on this. I know sometimes it is difficult to advocate for a group of which you yourself are part of, and I am aware of that, and I hope that he will be supported. But I hope the Minister agrees that he is in an ideal position, not just to be an ambassador for Jersey, but also for the worldwide L.G.B.T.Q.+ community who are so frequently marginalised. I encourage him to be bold in his diplomacy, as others have done, and to use his influence to share our emerging values that we have in Jersey of diversity and inclusivity as being something that is really important to us but also to bring back ideas and to share with us steps forward that others have made.

1.1.8 Deputy M.R. Scott of St. Brelade:

First of all, I would like to thank the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services for presenting this document for discussion among the States Assembly, and the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture in his former role as one of the chairs of the Economic and International Affairs Panel for bringing forward this move to create more transparency in the policy for external affairs. As my panel colleague, Deputy Kovacs, has pointed out, the actual policy can be regarded as a bit of a moving target because the Minister for External Relations’ role, to a large extent, is to facilitate the policies of other Ministers. Which means of course that insofar as we have some States Members who have interests that go beyond the economy which of course is one of the main focuses of my panel, then I very much invite them to continue to look at this document, scrutinise it, see whether it reflects those particular areas. Because one thing that is perhaps misunderstood about the Scrutiny Panels is that we do have the roles of looking at specific topics, we are not confined to just particular Ministers, so different Scrutiny Panels can ask questions and interview different Ministers according to particular topics. We, as a panel, will continue to monitor the progress of the common policy, and we are going to be using its objectives as a foundation for ongoing questions throughout the term of office and that will be in the form of quarterly hearings, written questions, and questions in the States.

[10:45]

Coming to the document itself, and I am mindful of keeping my role as chair of the panel separate from some of my personal observations; I will perhaps start as chair. But in terms of the tone of the document, I would like to invite the Minister for External Relations to think a bit more about some of the trends that have been going on at Public Accounts Committee level and indeed at the wider level in terms of the need for government to foster and develop a learning culture. I notice that there are certain references in the document to Jersey being a centre of excellence and an outstanding place to do business, a well-run Island state. Well, everything is a matter of degree and I do believe there are things that you can learn from other jurisdictions. There has been a reference to a desire that we promote a strong and open, diverse and innovative economy. Well, there can be a difficulty in being all things to all people, particularly when you have limited resources. When we talk about diversity, we have to also question at the same time to what extent is there a focus on finance and what do we mean? When we look at diversity and we congratulate ourselves for having a diversified Assembly, it is not just a matter of acknowledging that there are different people present from different cultures. Diversification means learning from those cultures. So, I very much hope that this policy will extend to learning from best global practice and particularly in terms of the economy because we are not a leading economy, we are not showing that we are growing at the same rate as many small island jurisdictions. There have been breaks on this and perhaps to some extent that is the role of his fellow Ministers to investigate why we do not perhaps have a proportionate share of the new economy as perhaps some other island states and maybe look at what it is about our presence on trade indices or other trade relations where perhaps St. Lucia has more prominence in some global indices than we do despite being a smaller population. There are things which I believe I would very much like to see are reflected in this document as an active way of, not just promoting the Island as a place to do business, but as a place to learn and develop opportunities and promote areas of global growth. On the subject of growth, I am very mindful of what Deputy Ward said. I do not believe that growth need be a dirty word when it comes to climate change. In fact, in order to address some of the things that we need to do in order to meet our global climate change responsibilities, we will need to have the money to do that. So, growth in a way that is responsible and contributes towards our desire to help manage climate change should not be discouraged. In terms of the mention of new links with France, of course I applaud that. I applaud any kind of development of good, positive relations with different countries. I would just point out that again we have another moving feast here. The devaluation of sterling does mean that we have to be realistic in terms of what we can achieve with the French in terms of perhaps the services they provide to us. But of course it does present opportunities too, and I am glad to hear that the Minister will be looking into those. So, I will stop speaking at this point, but basically those are the … the real main emphasis I am trying to say here is that let us not have this document just be a document that looks to perhaps promote local interests and to add a bit of spin on areas where perhaps we could learn to be a bit more humble, to learn more, to get more data, and to improve our economy and therefore conditions for all Islanders.

1.1.9 Deputy C.F. Labey of Grouville and St. Martin:

I welcome this policy update and I am glad to be working closely with the Minister for External Relations who also occupies an outward-facing portfolio, mine being aid and his being trade, which are rightly separated so as to ensure J.O.A.’s (Jersey Overseas Aid) work responds to need in an impartial and uncompromised way. I hear the remarks made this morning by Deputy Mézec and I concur with much of what he said. I too believe that a consistent approach should be adopted in how we work together in a consistent matter, so I am very grateful to him for making those remarks. I am obviously comforted that the policy recognises the work of Jersey Overseas Aid which seeks to enhance Jersey’s reputation as a good, global citizen, latterly probably best known for offering the support, humanitarian support, to the Ukraine, and probably better known to an African farmer at least for our really good dairy cows which are changing milk yields across Africa. However, what both portfolios do is promote the Island on the international stage, which is essential in a post-Brexit era. A document which will assist the Minister achieve many of his policy aims and the soft power required in diplomacy is the Island Identity report where the overarching objectives include recognising that Jersey has a positive and international personality and that public policies coherently support and develop Jersey’s distinct identity. These are broken down further into specific goals: expanding the international narrative about Jersey, developing Jersey’s distinct international personality separate from that of the U.K. but with strong connections to Britain, France and other European countries and the Commonwealth, and finally, celebrating and better promoting what we do well. I know the Minister and his department have taken and are implementing many of the recommendations set out therein, such as creating an independent External Relations Department which was done in the last term of office, establishing a cultural diversity hub which is indeed being advanced in the Chief Minister’s 100-Day action plan, reaching out to the Jersey diaspora, and developing and expanding Jersey’s ambassadors. We are all Island ambassadors and we all have a role to play, in not only supporting the Minister deliver his vitally-important bilateral programme, but we can also strive to enhance and expand the narrative about Jersey beyond that of finance through various organisations we are involved, be that the Commonwealth, the A.P.F. (Assemblée Parlementaire de la Francophonie), the U.N. (United Nations), the World Bank, the O.E.C.D., C.E.D.A.W. and should aspire to increase our representation on these bodies. With regard to C.E.D.A.W., I am grateful to Deputy Doublet who specifically mentioned that this morning. She is right, we do have further to go down the path. We have got more criteria to meet before we are fully affiliated if that is the correct terminology. We have got to work further with the U.N. and the work needs focus, and I undertake to do that with the Minister. If Deputy Doublet is interested, which I know she is, I would be more than happy to work with her in advancing this so we can increase our affiliation. As I said, we all have a job of work to do, not only as Jersey ambassadors, but to educate others about our unique constitution. The U.K.’s Lord Chancellor said: “Jersey has an international identity that is different from that of the U.K.” Education material can now be found on the Island Identity website but, as a government, I believe we can and should do far more to explain our constitutional differences, our heritage, our culture. I would suggest to the Minister a piece of work over our communications is urgently needed, both internally and externally. We can all promote our areas of expertise and claim, whether that be our dairy cows, philanthropy, conservation, gastronomy, Jèrriais, international development, innovation and our unique blend of French, English and other cultures. We are a great Island, one to be proud of and one that needs to be understood internationally, and I welcome working with the Minister for External Relations to achieve the aims of his common policy.

1.1.10 Deputy L. Stephenson of St. Mary, St. Ouen and St. Peter:

I had the honour, shortly after the election, of representing Jersey at the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture’s meeting at the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham. It was a particular honour as a new Member, so fresh into politics, to be put into that kind of forum and to see just how meetings like that work and to learn more about the Commonwealth and Jersey’s relationship within that structure. What really interested me was where we had to sit in the room. Now we do not get a seat at the main table because our membership of the Commonwealth is extended to us via the U.K. and, that is fine, that is how the relationship works. But there was a group of different jurisdictions: the Isle of Man and Guernsey and Gibraltar who were all sat in this corner together. We have no seat at the table and no speaking rights there. Now, there were conversations had that day about the possibility of whether we could explore having a seat at the table together as a kind of Crown Dependencies and overseas territories’ seat that you share and you swap the front chair every hour or so or when one would need to talk. I understand that this has happened in the past and I just want to perhaps raise it as something that maybe we could consider in future. There were some very strong opinions on it from other places. Obviously as a newcomer it was all very new and different to me and I was listening and learning but I just thought that was something that was quite interesting to raise, particularly as, I think it is point 28 in the document that has been shared, talks specifically about the Commonwealth and our relationship with it and the meetings that we are able to go to and how we participate there. It also came up at that same event about the power of small island nations working together. Obviously, it is important that we work on our relationships with the U.K. and France and other European nations and others around the world like we have heard. But I would just like to appeal to the Minister and his department not to forget Jersey’s size and the links that it could have with small island nations, where we could learn from one another and have some interesting conversations there. I was encouraged that he brought up particularly arts and culture and heritage, and I understand that small island nations working together in that arena would be really quite powerful and interesting. But I would say, please do not forget about sport, because that is something that should be added to that list, and I would like to see it mentioned more. The Isle of Man, for example, sees sport very much as an export, so maybe that is just something for us to think about.

[11:00]

Before I sit down, I would just like to say Deputy Curtis’ contribution, talking about well-being and happiness, was really welcome and I share those thoughts and thank her for raising that. It was a very interesting point. Also, Deputy Labey on Island ambassadors; again, I think that is a great thing. We have seen it very recently, have we not, with people from Jersey in the national media, for example, really making Jersey very, very proud. Again, I would just say, please do not forget about our sportsmen and women in that regard.

1.1.11 Deputy S.G. Luce of Grouville and St. Martin:

I rise to talk about a word that some speakers have already used, and that is the word “influence”. The Chief Minister spoke about working in the Island’s best interests and the Minister for External Relations spoke about our work around the globe, around the U.K. and the E.U. We all know that as an Island, Jersey has punched above its weight for many centuries. We have of course our historic trading links with the U.S. (United States) and with Canada. We know, as has already been mentioned a few times this morning, the Jersey cow has been the most fantastic promoter of our Island around the globe historically and she continues to do that with some fantastic work in Africa. We know that our influence we use where we can enhance our financial services sector around the globe, so we are known around the globe. How much influence we have around the globe is a different question. Then we have the U.K., and we engage with the U.K. on defence, and obviously make great use of the Privy Council for our laws, we engage on foreign policy and trade but, again, how much influence do we really have? Most recently we have had to cope with Brexit, among many other things, but specifically Brexit put some challenges in front of us where we were dealing with our neighbours, and we were dealing with them via London to Brussels, Brussels to Paris, and Paris back down to Normandy and Brittany. The Minister for External Relations mentioned enhancing our relationship with our closest neighbours. When I read the report that he circulated, in some ways I was a little bit disappointed to only see 3 paragraphs which vaguely mentioned it, and one paragraph only, 19, I think it is, which specifically spoke about France. I have some worries and concerns that we are still having to deal via London to get into Europe and I would like to see far more direct contact with Brittany and Normandy. We are extremely fortunate at this moment, we have not only a Chief Minister and Minister for External Relations, but also a Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture who all are fluent in French, and I want to use that fluency to influence our close neighbours where we can and really make our influence make a difference. Where we can, I want to cut out unnecessary bureaucracy and deal direct and speak direct at both officer and Ministerial level, and that means between Jersey and Normandy and Brittany; not via London, not via Brussels and not via Paris. I know it is a challenge, I know it is difficult in these post-Brexit days, but I really want to get back as near as we can to the pre-Brexit situation that we had with Normandy and Brittany. So, I close with that, influence is something we can have here, and it is a situation where we really can use our influence to have some better effect for the Island.

1.1.12 Deputy A. Howell of St. John, St. Lawrence and Trinity:

I too would like to thank the Minister for External Relations for giving us this opportunity to speak and just all put our points of view, and it is very much appreciated. I also agree with very much of what Deputy Mézec has said this morning. I think we have to be very careful about with whom we build our relationships. I am very concerned about many places around the world where human rights are not properly valued and where people are oppressed. I think we have to be very careful what we are doing for financial gain. But my points are really much closer to home and mirror a lot of what Deputy Luce has said. At the moment it is very difficult for local boatowners to go over to France. We have to email ahead, 24 hours, and then we have to say where we are going. This year, I have not been able to go to Portbail, for example, because we would have to go to Carteret first, get our passports signed, and then the tide, if we are lucky we might get to Portbail, but there was no way we could get back in the same day because we would have to go back via Carteret again. We have not been able to go to Chausey either because we have to go to Granville first and then we go to Chausey, and then we go back to Granville. I am sure that with all your French and your connections, you may be able to make it easier for just local people to be able to travel because they would really appreciate it. I think if we could also improve the ferry and the times of the ferry, I think has been mentioned before. But it is jolly difficult to get to France for a weekend now. France is very close to us, it is our nearest neighbour, and I would really appreciate you working on our behalf.

The Bailiff:

If you could address your remarks through the Chair. It should be “if Deputy Ozouf or the Minister” could work on your behalf.

Deputy A. Howell:

I am so sorry, the Minister. Also, if there is any way that the Minister may be able to communicate with the European Union with the U.K. and with our nearest island neighbours so that people perhaps who have property over in the E.U. may be able to spend longer there because I think that is another problem that we are facing. You can only go, I believe, for 90 days, and then you have to come back. Then you have to wait for, I think it is 180 days, and then you can go back. If there is any way that we can improve these sort of things. There is also one other thing, it is very difficult I think and takes a long time to get a visa. I have got a very lovely constituent who has been to Italy to work with a family for I think 3 months, then she has to come back. Now she wants to go and study there. Her passport has been in London for 45 days and her course has started but she has not got her visa yet. If there is any way that we could improve these things, I would be very grateful.

1.1.13 Deputy I. Gardiner of St. Helier North:

I am pleased that the Minister for External Relations has brought the common policy on external relations to the Assembly for this in-committee debate. I am more pleased to see that the children and young people are included, as it is important that our external relations policy considers them and their opportunities within this. I am sure that Members are aware that we have a diverse community: 62 languages spoken in our Jersey schools, so we have 62 links to 62, probably, different countries, if not more. So probably my comments will be around, as you can imagine, children and education, and I will go point by point through the policy. Let us start with our neighbours, the island of Guernsey, and I have seen in the policy the Government of Jersey seeks to co-ordinate and align with other Channel Islands and more closely in Guernsey in areas like fishing and transport connectivity and cultural collaboration. I would like personally to work closer with Guernsey and exchange ideas and expertise in the area of education and children’s services, as we have similar challenges, and to work with my counterparts in Guernsey. The next is Jersey’s deepest ties with the U.K. It is important that we continue to ensure that our students receive international fees. Another area that it would be helpful to have clarity and stability is around the health provision and health engagement, what our students are covered in the U.K. and to make sure that it is fully covered. The third area with the U.K. which is developed but as we are progressing with skills gap and needs on the Island, we need to look into more engagement partnerships with universities and bring this expertise and options for the undergraduate and the training to the Island which we will be working with universities and their partnerships. Now we are moving to the international area, and I will bring to Members’ attention if you missed, we did have - well it is still underway - a Hautlieu and Oregon exchange. I recently had the pleasure to attend Hautlieu School to meet the students from Oregon who were jetlagged but enjoying their first days in Jersey and our students went to Oregon. Apparently, they travelled more than 30 hours with several exchanges. But the benefit that children and young people can get from these exchanges are many and much more beyond just education; it might potentially change their lives. It is the different experience and skills that they need in the future. I am fully supportive of the work that External Relations put to create this exchange and support this exchange, and I would work with the Minister for External Relations further in the future. There are other exchanges on the way, and I would like to see this expanded to our Portuguese, Polish and Romanian students, just to name a few, and maybe others, also to exchange with our neighbours in France. The Education Department just launched our multilingual learners’ policy this year. I would encourage the Minister for External Relations when engaging with a different embassy to connect to the education attaché and make sure that we can exchange curriculums and experience in languages as well. Just the relationship with France is, as we know, extremely important and I saw that we are going to try to bring this critical relationship, before Brexit, again, to include educational and cultural opportunities to be in scope. Scotland: we are starting our Scotland promise just working and there are many opportunities for us to learn from and work with other jurisdictions to share best practices and even resources to continue improving and develop our services. With the assistance of the External Relations team, we are aiming to build a closer relationship with Scotland, a programme of work across legislation, policy, culture, data, outlying financial modelling, active participation in creating a shared vision and practice built on the Promise Scotland and Scottish Government plans for the Children’s Services. It would allow us to operate some programmes in tandem with Scotland and obviously support from the External Relations work is important. Just last week we had a delegation from Jersey who came back from Iceland, and we will look to work with Iceland and to see how their very advanced and successful Planet Youth programme prevention model, developed especially for teenagers, can be introduced in Jersey. It was a conversation that the Icelandic delegation would like to come to Jersey, and it is something new but I am sure that other opportunities will arise. I am really welcoming assistance to C.Y.P.E.S. to assist with Jersey after its participation in the Commonwealth Games and I am welcoming the commitment from the Minister for External Relations to work closely with children and education to ensure we are maximising opportunities and basically in an engagement with any embassy when the Minister for External Relations will have, as we are discussing trade and finance, to think about children, young people and the community as a whole.

The Deputy Greffier of the States (in the Chair):

Mr Attorney General, it is your turn.

1.1.14 The Attorney General:

I simply wish to note and record that my department works with the Ministry for External Relations, the Minister, on many aspects of the functions that are outlined in the policy and we have an extremely good working relationship.

[11:15]

My attention was drawn to paragraph 29 of the policy, which refers to developing the international identity of Jersey, something which Deputy Labey spoke on eloquently. I just noted that paragraph 29 is in fairly general terms and I wondered whether there was more opportunity for specifics in relation to that paragraph and specifically I suggest in relation to obtaining entrustments from the U.K. to conclude international agreements with other jurisdictions. Because, as is known, we are not a state and our options as regards negotiating international agreements are either that the U.K. does it on our behalf or we have to obtain entrustments from the U.K. to do so. Examples of that are in relation to the Tax Information Exchange Agreements that have been negotiated so successfully in the past. I wondered whether paragraph 29 could make some specific reference to obtaining entrustments from the U.K. I had particularly in mind entrustments in relation to bilateral trade agreements, where experience has shown that sometimes it can be an extremely prolonged process obtaining entrustments from the U.K. to conclude those sorts of agreements. Indeed, there may need to be more frequent use or certainly more scope for trying to obtain entrustments from the U.K. in relation to free trade agreements, where it may not be appropriate for us to participate in those agreements in relation to services. There may need to be a greater use of concluding our own specific arrangements in relation to those sorts of services and so that would need to be through entrustments. I would just suggest to the Minister that some thought might be given to including specific reference to obtaining entrustments in developing Jersey’s international identity.

1.1.15 Deputy P.M. Bailhache of St. Clement:

May I join, first of all, with others in congratulating the Minister for bringing this forward for debate. The importance of External Relations and the work of his Ministry are well-illustrated by the report. I suspect some Members may have been surprised by the extent to which External Relations permeates so many corners of the public administration. Sir Martin Le Quesne, a retired British Ambassador and a former Member of this Assembly, once told me that the importance of diplomacy lies in the avoidance of car crashes. When you successfully avoid a car crash nothing happens, and nobody notices but that does not mean that diplomacy is unimportant. When it fails and French fishermen invade the harbour of St. Helier or a French Minister threatens to cut off the supply of electricity to the Island, then of course we do notice the failure. While I generally applaud the Minister’s report and I would perhaps just like to ask him for clarity, that the report that we have before us is one to inform this debate; it is not the new common policy.

The Deputy Greffier of the States (in the Chair):

Minister, would you like to give way?

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf:

Yes, indeed, Sir. I am happy to say absolutely that it is very much a document to inform the debate to catalyse our contributions and so it is by no means any formalised policy, that is why we are having the debate today. His and other Members’ remarks are really important in framing that future policy.

Deputy P.M. Bailhache:

I thank the Minister for that. As I say, while I generally applaud the report, I think I have 3 reservations or 3 aspects upon which I would just like to speak briefly. The first reservation is that the report does not tell us how it is proposed to amend the policy, which has been adopted by the last 3 Governments. I think it might have been helpful to have had some indication from the Minister as to what he had in mind. Clearly, as a consequence of Brexit, the paragraph on relations with the European Union will change. But what about the Channel Islands Brussels office? It would be interesting to know from the Minister whether Brexit has affected, in his view, the importance of the work that that office does. Is it still possible for officials and indeed the Minister to have access to the European Commission, to commissioners? Because now of course Jersey is not a dependant territory of a member state but it is a dependant territory of a state which has nothing to do with the European Union. Deputy Mézec, I think, would be disappointed if I did not rise to his bait in relation to the second interim report of the Constitutional Review Committee. For the benefit of new Members, perhaps I could just say that that was a report commissioned by a previous Chief Minister to establish whether it was feasible for Jersey to become in independent state. I would not go to the wall if the Minister chose to omit that paragraph from the new common policy but I do think that it serves 2 useful purposes. The first is that it states positively that it is not the policy of the Jersey Government to seek independence from the United Kingdom. Anyone reading this common policy about Jersey’s international aspirations might very well think that this was a subject that we had in mind, so a positive statement to the contrary seems to me to serve a purpose. Secondly, it does alert people to the fact that the issue has been considered and it is a fact. It may be a small deterrent to incursions upon our constitutional autonomy. I would compare it with the nuclear deterrent, one hopes that nuclear weapons will never be used but if you say that you are never going to use your nuclear weapons, as the leader of the Deputy’s English political party once did, it ceases to become a deterrent and it is useless. As I say, I do not go to the wall about it but I think it does serve a purpose. The second reservation that I have is that the section on international context is a little short in the report and does not underline for the Assembly the importance of understanding our constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom. Deputy Labey spoke correctly about this and so did, I think, Deputy Luce. We all have taken an oath to uphold and maintain the laws, privileges, liberties and franchises of Jersey. It is important that Members should understand what our constitutional privileges are. What is a constitutional privilege? A privilege is a legal right and a constitutional privilege is a legal right that relates to our constitutional relationship. I am sorry if I am upsetting the Minister. The most important constitutional privilege that we have is the right or privilege of self-government and yesterday we demonstrated that by debating at length the report of the Council of Ministers in relation to things that we could do to help in relation to the cost-of-living crisis. These matters are for us, they are not for any other Parliament or legislature. Occasionally our right to self-government is challenged and it was challenged not so very long ago in relation to the issue of whether or not registers of beneficial ownership of companies should be made public or not. In the House of Commons some Members of Parliament took it upon themselves to lodge an amendment which would have purported to apply directly to Jersey some legislation, making our register of beneficial ownership public. The then Chief Minister, Deputy Gorst and I prevailed upon the Government of the day in the United Kingdom to persuade the M.P.s (Members of Parliament) in question to withdraw the amendment and so the constitutional crisis was averted. But Members, I think, need to understand and I urge Members to look at Article 31 of the States of Jersey Law because that is key in defending our right to self-government. Article 31 of the States of Jersey Law, and it is something which I think the Government might well consider incorporating in the policy, provides that if it is proposed to extend a draft Act of Parliament or an Order in Council to Jersey, there is a duty on both the Royal Court and the Chief Minister to refer the issue to the States so the States can debate the matter and express a view. If the States were to express a view that was contrary to the contents of the proposed Order in Council or Act of Parliament, I have absolutely no doubt that the Royal Court would not register the Act or Order in Council and that in consequence it would not have any force of law in Jersey. Therefore, the United Kingdom Parliament might say one thing but this legislature, the States of Jersey, would have said something different. There would be a clash and the Government of the United Kingdom on the last occasion that this issue arose was keen to avoid such a constitutional position. I agree too with Deputy Labey that we should do more to help Members to understand our constitutional privileges and to understand them better. The third reservation that I had was in relation to France. This is not really a reservation because the Minister makes it very clear that the relationship with France is the second-most important international relationship that we have, and he is quite correct to say that. They are not just our nearest geographical neighbour, but they are a country with which we have historically had very close relations and indeed still have to a certain extent, particularly regionally. But our relations with the national government in France do leave something to be desired and the evidence of that was the response to Brexit and to the agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union, which led to the fishermen’s invasion and to the unfortunate remarks of the French Minister of the Sea.

[11:30]

Improving relations with the national government in France is really important, although I think I have mentioned this before I take the opportunity to make 2 suggestions in that respect again. The first relates to language, language is a means of communication. The French speak a different language from the language which most of us speak in Jersey. It is important, I believe, that more people in Jersey should speak fluently the French language to assist communication with our neighbours. One really simple way to achieve that and to make a significant difference is to introduce bilingual primary schools in the Island. As we all know, children absorb language like a sponge. If you get a child at a young enough age they will absorb a foreign language and the English language together without any difficulty at all and in a year or 18 months they will be able to speak fluently in both those languages; it is quite extraordinary but I have seen the effect of this in bilingual schools in London. She is not here but I shall hope to come and see the Minister for Children and Education in due course, perhaps with the assistance of others, in order to urge upon her that by September of next year we have some bilingual French primary schools in Jersey where children have this enormous opportunity. There are tremendous benefits for the children themselves, I will not go into that because it is beyond the scope of this debate. But so far as the French are concerned, it would be a really significant issue. I do not think that the importance of the French language to French men and women should be understated. The French language is part of their culture; they feel passionately about it. I recall that in discussions with French Ministers, French Ambassadors and regional leaders in Normandy, there was enthusiasm, even excitement and a great willingness to help us to establish such schools in Jersey, so I hope that we can do that.

The Bailiff:

Deputy, I am sorry to interrupt but we are over the 15 minutes.

Deputy P.M. Bailhache:

I am sorry, Sir?

The Bailiff:

We are over the 15 minutes.

Deputy P.M. Bailhache:

I beg your pardon, Sir, right well …

The Bailiff:

There may be an opportunity for you to speak again but …

Deputy P.M. Bailhache:

I will sit down.

1.1.16 Deputy H. Jeune of St. John, St. Lawrence and Trinity:

I would like to commend the Minister for sharing this report to the Assembly and holding this debate. As Assistant Minister responsible for Jersey’s response to the climate change, I want to reassure Deputy Ward and this Assembly that myself and this Government are taking our responsibilities very seriously when it comes to our impact as Jersey on climate change, both internally and externally. Our ambition is for Jersey to be a green beacon. But as the report has stated, domestic action alone cannot solve the global climate challenges. Decarbonising our economy will be difficult, indeed it is likely to be one of the most difficult things that our Government and Governments all around the world have ever had to face. Only on Tuesday in the opening remarks at the U.N. General Assembly, the U.N. Secretary General stated that: “The climate crisis is the defining issue of our time. It must be the first priority of every Government and multilateral organisation and we have a rendezvous with climate disaster. No region is untouched and we ain’t seen nothing yet.” I would like to suggest to Members to read that full statement and remarks, as it is probably one of the most important remarks that a U.N. Secretary General has said in the U.N. General Assembly to date and it has summed up a lot of what is being said today. But I can assure you I will be working closely with the Minister for External Relations and his team to deliver our international climate obligations under the Paris Agreement commitments. But also, as it has also been mentioned today, to learn and exchange with other regions and small island nations, as well as with civil society and businesses, on how they are adapting and mitigating climate change and how to finance the transition. We are in a climate and biodiversity crisis and we do need to ensure that we have genuine action and we do not fall into the trap of greenwashing. I assure you, this Assembly, that we will try and endeavour to make sure that this happens, that we will have genuine action.

1.1.17 Connétable M.K. Jackson of St. Brelade:

I am grateful to the Minister for presenting R.124 and I would like to speak regarding our own doorstep and our links with our closer neighbours in Europe and make some observations and comment on ways forward. I am a bit of a Francophile, not that I am in any way French but my late mother, as a French-speaking Brusselois, may have had an influence. That leads me to the point that broadly the ability for Islanders to speak French is not as good as it might be. Through our education system we must do more to ensure that school-leavers are competent in that language. I do not say this lightly so that we limit ourselves to be equipped to buy things in a shop or order a meal in a café but to enable us to improve our commercial, our medical, fiduciary, our sporting and heritage and political relationships with our French neighbours some 20 miles away. I am pleased to follow Deputy Bailhache, who eloquently pointed out much the same. A lingual barrier is, to my mind, an enormous barrier and it is for Government to ensure this barrier is removed. I might suggest that we could look to large parts of Canada who have experience with bilingual government while still being part of the British Commonwealth. Going back to the fishing industry, it has been mentioned by others and I am concerned once again that there are few French speakers in government with the ability to talk and to understand the views of our neighbours, what I would term key level. I am of course grateful to La Maison de la Normandie who presently provide a link but I wonder whether this is enough. I also wonder whether we should do more with the French media, who in Normandy and Brittany are interested in what we do. Likewise, would it be helpful if our local media were more proactive in reporting events happening in nearby France? Do we have anybody, for example, in our comms unit with particular responsibility for this? I would emphasise the point made earlier by Deputy Luce that we must be proactive in developing bilateral arrangements with Brittany and Normandy. We cannot continue to allow our destiny to be blocked by complex channels which involve Whitehall, Brussels and Paris before arriving at the adjacent French coasts. Deputy Ozouf mentioned a close partnership with France but in the light of this being fractured over the past few years I feel there is much to be done. We will soon be discussing a new food law, we must enable imports of food from European countries to come over more easily. Our sea links with the U.K. are often affected by weather and we must help to guarantee supplies on to supermarket shelves without unnecessary barriers. Then I wonder how much dialogue we have had with France over the Vienna Convention requirements. I have a suspicion it is very little because nobody speaks the lingo but of course I stand to be corrected. I would take this opportunity to trumpet the Parish twinning associations and, speaking for St. Brelade, we have an enthusiastic number of members here, our corresponding association in Granville is enthusiastic; why are we not taking more advantage? I throw in an observation that we could give the ferry service, linking us with Normandy, some support to ensure that timings serve the Islanders in a practical way. I gather that Manche Iles is owned by the department in Normandy but privately operated; can we do more with that? I know that immigration arrangements with regard to passports are under discussion by the Home Affairs Department, let us move this on as soon as we can. The A.P.F. is an organisation which I believe we should take more advantage of and I would encourage any Members who have a French-speaking ability or an inclination that way to become involved. The world has a large number of French-speaking Parliaments, and many Members here have experience of being involved with them, who I think could do a lot for the Island. Likewise, the C.P.A. (Commonwealth Parliamentary Association) provides excellent links with other member countries of that body. Many are in similar predicaments to ourselves and we have much to learn from each other. A recent participation in an event in Halifax, Nova Scotia demonstrated that very clearly to me where common ideas were exchanged. It would be of course remiss not to speak about relationships with the Bailiwick of Guernsey; we must do more. My experiences some years ago, while building the Energy from Waste plant, was such that we felt we could deal with waste being produced in Guernsey. We could deal with it from a technological point of view. We could deal with it from a transportation point of view. But the tribal point of view was difficult to overcome and we still have that, dare I say, nonsense going on; we must overcome that. Finally, I would like to emphasise the importance of sea and air links to our economy. They are of fundamental importance and need continual nurturing. They are fragile and we must keep them supported to enable our economy to flourish.

1.1.18 Deputy L.V. Feltham of St. Helier Central:

I wanted to follow on to some of those comments made by Deputy Labey, he made very good comments about the need for good communications and reflecting the Island’s identity as well. Having lived outside of the Island for a considerable amount of time, I gathered a bit more perspective about how people within international communities may view the Island and see us. I think it is important that we remember in the conversations that we have at a political level that those politicians and policy makers will also be needing to consider the views of their own community and how their communities may perceive the Island, whether or not those perceptions and assumptions are right or wrong. That is also reflected in, potentially, how the international media will report on what we are doing. I was pleased to hear the Minister talk about cultural diplomacy and I think arts and culture has an incredibly important role to play in this respect. Arts and culture, for me, is an opportunity for us to think through ideas, to challenge ourselves and also to challenge perceptions. It opens up conversations and dialogue and enables us, potentially, to understand perceptions that we might find difficult. I am going to use quite a controversial example; it is quite stark. In the Venice Biennale the British pavilion in 2014 included works by an artist called Jeremy Deller. Part of that particular exhibition was a piece; it was an installation called St. Helier on Fire. It was a vision of a dystopian hypothetical future in which U.K. citizens had an uprising and set the financial institutions of St. Helier on fire. Thankfully, that did not happen. It was a future thought about in 2014 and it was St. Helier on Fire 2017, we are well past that now. I am looking at Deputy Bailhache as I am talking about this because the reason, I raise it is it gave an opportunity for ArtHouse Jersey, I think it was, to host a discussion and a dialogue about that piece of work and the perceptions that may be held about the Island and Deputy Bailhache took part in that.

[11:45]

What he may not have known at the time is that there was a group of people sat in Perth, Western Australia, in the Department for Culture and the Arts watching that dialogue. Chatting with my colleagues at the time about that - and this is no reflection on the quality of the debate, it was very good - what we noticed was it was very much from a local perspective and it did not deal with, potentially, the perspectives that this very international piece of work may be dealing with about the Island. I thought that was very interesting at the time. But back to present times and, potentially, a better example of how art can be used positively with the recent exhibition by ArtHouse Jersey, the home exhibition in which we welcomed artists from other countries to talk to our local communities here and then create pieces of work. I am very much in favour of that kind of cultural exchange and exchange of ideas and the ways in which we can challenge our own perceptions and then, potentially, improve our communication so that we can effectively deal with those perceptions and assumptions that some people may hold about us. The other thing that I wanted to talk about was international trade deals and obviously the words of Deputy Stephenson resonated with me when she talked about the seat at the table. Again, I was fortunate to sit very near to our international policy officer when I worked for State Government in Australia and I was very clear about the structure around where our seat at the table was and how State Government could influence via the Council of Australian Governments and then via the Australian Governments into those trade deals. I would like some more understanding about the structures that we are working within here and how effectively we can participate in those negotiations. Also quite separate from that, I think one thing that we cannot forget is that the people that come and live here for perhaps short periods of time or long periods of time, that then leave and go and live elsewhere, will take to the countries that they go to their thoughts and views about how they were treated while they were here on the Island, and I think we cannot forget that. I know that Deputy Porée raised some questions earlier in the week about the treatment of migrant workers, but we must not forget that that is going to go back how we treat people. Yes, those were the points that I wanted to make, and I would like to thank the Minister for bringing this debate.

The Bailiff:

Thank you very much, Deputy. We have approximately 45 minutes left and I would obviously wish to call on the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services to have at least 10 minutes to sum up. There are another 4 wishing to speak for the first time. I just alert Members that that is the position that we are in at the moment.

1.1.19 Connétable D. Johnson of St. Mary:

I do not think we should be challenging your timetable. During the latter half of the last Assembly, I had the honour of serving as chair of the Economic and International Affairs Scrutiny Panel and that covered the period of the T.C.A. (Trade and Co-operation Agreement) and the subsequent dialogue, is what it has been called, with the French fishermen. I simply just wish to record that I can testify to the hard work of both the then Minister and his department in all that they did at the time and including, in particular, informing the Scrutiny Panel of the day as to what their actions were and I am sure that element of co-operation will continue. The basic one I wish to make is that at that time the Minister I was dealing with was the Minister for External Relations and Financial Services. I simply query whether the policy document could clarify the roles between the 2 because, for instance, policy 48 refers here to: “External Relations having led the negotiation and conclusion of Jersey’s own bilateral investment treaties.” I had assumed that the Minister was wearing his hat as that of Financial Services at the time but maybe that was wrong and in fact the shaking of the head from that Minister confirms that I was wrong, I apologise for that. Also, I am indebted to the Attorney General, although he has pinched my lines to a certain extent for bringing up the question of entrustment agreements. They are something which I think the U.K. do not give away lightly but they will enable this Island to tailor-make some of its own policies as regards trade agreements. In that connection I simply wonder whether the better responsibility is up for the Minister for Financial Services in the sense that it takes away perhaps political dimension which just Deputy Bailhache mentioned of the Government per se wishing to break away from the U.K. in any way. If it was confined to trade matters that might be helpful. One other aspect I note is I do not think the policy document refers to the office which Jersey has in the United States, and that may well be a good thing. Because, again, my understanding is that the dual role ... I mean it is the last time that that office was there primarily to assist Jersey’s investment in financial matters in particular. In that connection I am obviously aware that the Financial Services Department did lead in creating new products basically designed for the American market, the products with which they were familiar. Again, I simply flag the point that I think there may be occasions in the policy document where there could be a greater clarity as to who does what. In saying that, I have a general concern as to possible duplication of roles and trips to various places and whether a particular strategy is better served by one Minister than the other. I am anxious to avoid the need for 2 Ministers to be away at the same time and deprive the Assembly on, say, sitting days of their expertise.

1.1.20 Deputy B. Porée of St. Helier South:

I would like to thank Deputy Ozouf for sharing this report with us, thank you very much. My point is very much to an area on your report where the Minister speaks about the economical challenges and the workers shortage. The Minister’s point on the social economical change, more specifically to me with regards to human rights issues, it refers to: “The flexibility available within the current domestic legislation to facilitate the flow of temporary workers in Jersey.” Presently there have been issues already highlighted, which I have mentioned before and Deputy Feltham mentioned earlier on, that some members in our community that come to Jersey under the working permits are already facing work-related challenges which affect their well-being and possibly their human rights. My question to the Minister is within the flexibility, how does the Minister intend to approach those issues?

1.1.21 Deputy K.F. Morel of St. John, St. Lawrence and Trinity:

Like others I would like to thank the Minister for External Relations for bringing this debate. I think it is entirely appropriate that the States Assembly gives its views on external relations so the Minister can assimilate them into his work. It is interesting, the Minister for External Relations has an interesting role; on the one hand it can be seen as a passive role, he is merely relaying the views of other Ministers to those counterparts, whether it be in the U.K. or further afield; a role of diplomacy, not putting necessarily his own views on that but just carrying the views of the Ministers back home, so to speak. On the other side, it can be seen as a very active role and in that I see it as active in terms of protecting Jersey’s constitutional position. I know Deputy Bailhache has talked about this and I know others have as well, and I am pleased they have. Certainly, the very first clause in the External Relations policy does talk about protecting Jersey’s unique constitution and its domestic fiscal autonomy; that is entirely correct. In that role I believe the Minister for External Relations act as our eyes and ears in a very active manner, relaying to us the views that are happening abroad, particularly in regard to the United Kingdom. I know Deputy Bailhache also referred to issues of conflicts of interest between Jersey and the United Kingdom. He referred to a particular period in time and I was reading an article that Deputy Bailhache himself wrote back in 2009. In that article he said: “Where the interests of the U.K. and the Channel Islands do not coincide, the interests of the islands will always take second place.” He was referring to the way the United Kingdom Government will act. This is something we always have to be aware of, that the U.K. I am sure will make its best endeavours to represent our interests, even where they do not coincide. But U.K. Ministers naturally will always wish to protect and serve Her Majesty’s Government in Westminster before they take a view to serving our Government here in Jersey. I think the Minister for External Relations and the department there have an incredibly important active role in protecting Jersey’s interests. Because I think it is difficult for us to always be sure that our interests are being relayed in the manners that we wish they are, letters of entrustment become particularly important and I know other speakers have spoken about them. We have letters of entrustment to deal with various matters, including finance and bilateral agreements in terms of Double Taxation Agreements and T.I.E.A’s (Tax Information Exchange Agreements) as they are called as well. But I believe this is the time when we need to push harder and we need to see where we can convince the United Kingdom that it is correct and appropriate for us to have more letters of entrustment, particularly in regard to relations with our nearest neighbour and into Europe as well. When the U.K. was a member of the European Union it made sense that Jersey was generally quiet on E.U. matters and was led by the U.K. But now that the U.K. has left the European Union, the U.K. is a third country and indeed some of the views of the current Government could be considered extreme in regards to Europe. For instance, just yesterday it was announced that the United Kingdom would be leaving the European Universities Institute, which is a really important funder for postgraduate studies and research across Europe. That has nothing to do with the European Union but the U.K. has chosen to leave that anyway, therefore, thereby impoverishing its own academics at home and there is just no need for it to do that. But this is the type of activity that is taking place in the U.K. at the moment. I believe that Jersey should be free to engage with E.U. states and E.U. institutions on our own friendlier terms, particularly in regards to areas like health and education, as well as trade, as the Connétable of St. Mary just said. As well I would also like to add people have talked about trading, sport and also culture, which I know have been raised. These are areas, I believe, we should have letters of entrustment and we can deal on our own terms. This does nothing with regard to independence, it is just about Jersey asserting its own identity and accepting that we have views and interests which are different to those in the U.K. I am really pleased to have heard Deputy Stephenson talk about the importance of Island networks. This is something I am really interested in and quite passionate about. We are lucky in Jersey, in terms of small islands around the world we are a wealthier island and so we are well-placed to convene, in my view, a network of small islands where we can learn from each other, share information and enrich ourselves as a result. I mean enrich in a global sense, not in the financial sense, enrich in terms of understanding each other and helping each other; I think that is really important. We could have a North Atlantic group of islands or it could be even wider.

[12:00]

At the moment we work well with the other Crown Dependencies, but I do believe there is much more that we can all learn, especially as we meet the challenges of climate change and other matters, which are fundamentally important to all small islands. Over the last 20 years, I guess since the turn of the millennium, maybe a bit later, maybe it was the last 10 years, I believe a little complacency has fed into our relationships as an Assembly with other jurisdictions. Part of this, I believe, is because by creating the External Relations function within Government us, as Members, over the last decade or so have kind of sat back and said: “Well, that is okay, External Relations will look after our external relations; the name is on the tin.” But as a result of that this complacency, as I see it, among States Members as a whole, I believe we have weakened our relationships, particularly in areas like France, relationships with France, relationships with La Manche, relationships also with Guernsey and other Channel Islands. It is time, I believe, that we accept that it is not just the External Relations Department which is responsible for external relations, it is every single one of us in this Assembly. I am pleased that the policy, as written currently, refers to the C.P.A., the A.P.F., other organisations and I believe it is beholden on all of us here to grasp the opportunity to go and talk to other islands. I was very pleased just last week to be speaking to Ministers in Guernsey and the presidents of committees in Guernsey and we need to do that on our own because it is through those perhaps more informal relationships as well that we build relationships that last. Indeed, Guernsey is an area where this is particularly important. Global forces are making it increasingly important for us to work together and this starts by building those relationships between Assembly Members. It is a matter of amusement for many outside these islands that Jersey and Guernsey find it so hard to work together. For me it is a matter of consternation, we are 2 tiny islands. As far as the Bailiwicks are concerned, we number about 160,000 people, on a global scale it is absolutely nothing. It is dwarfed by other small islands; Majorca 900,000 people, Iceland 360,000 people. We do not come anywhere close to these tiny jurisdictions on a global scale and so we need to work together. Similarly, I believe that engagement with the media is very important. I am really pleased that the Connétable of St. Brelade mentioned this because if you look at France’s largest regional paper, which is, effectively, a national paper, in the last 2 months alone has published 9 articles about Jersey on all sorts of matters ranging from the way Jersey was dealing with the death of Her Majesty through to Jersey’s views on climate change. I was interviewed for an article about tourism. There were news items such as a French national being prosecuted in Jersey; 9 articles in 2 months. The national media in the U.K. does not come anywhere close to that kind of level of coverage and yet we do not engage with the media in France. We need a Communications Department that has the language abilities to engage with the media in France. Because if they are printing 9 articles in 2 months on a wide range of subjects, it is clear that they are massively interested. Most importantly, it is also clear that they are not just painting us as a paradis fiscal, as they would say in France, a tax haven; that is not their interest. In fact in the last 2 months they have not published a single article about that side of us. It has been articles of genuine interest and so we need to engage with this. Again, it is not just the External Relations Department, in this case it is the Communications Department. They need to gain the language skills, hire people who are bilingual and can engage with the French media because they want to write about us. We can engage them and help point them in the right direction in terms of writing about us, so I think it is really important. Then last and by no means least, I thoroughly agree with Deputy Bailhache and others about the importance of language-learning. I was just speaking to a colleague who told me that one school in Jersey, one major secondary school in Jersey, is now making French G.C.S.E. (General Certificate of Secondary Education) as optional; I believe there are other schools in Jersey making it optional. That is not right, that should never be right. We will always be 15 miles from France, nothing is going to change that. No constitutional relationship, nothing is ever going to change that. As a result of that, our Islanders need to be equipped to build relationships with the people we live most close to. It is vitally important, whether it is through bilingual primary schools, which I think is a superb idea or whether it is through just a greater engagement and making sure that learning French, if not at least one other language, is no longer optional in our education system; it needs to be mandatory in our education system. By doing that we will achieve what Jersey really needs, which is an international outlook. Jersey is a tiny island, as I have said, we cannot pretend, therefore, that we can only look inwards. Our future is international, whichever way you look at that. In order to engage internationally we need to have an appreciation and an ability to engage in other people’s languages, most notably France. I commend the Minister for External Relations for bringing this debate. I think it is absolutely the right debate and I think pretty much everyone has said things that I agree with in all sorts of ways. I feel that there is a thirst among this Assembly to engage internationally to assert Jersey’s Island identity and by doing so I hope that we are giving the Minister for External Relations all the information that he needs to do his job over the next 4 years with aplomb and further our international interests.

1.1.22 Deputy B. Ward of St. Clement:

Thank you, Minister, for the report and the opportunity to be part of this debate. Since I have been elected a number of Islanders have approached me to highlight that there is an anomaly on the receipt of old-age pensions from overseas, especially when you come back to live in Jersey to retire. These people are unable to receive their old-age pension accrued in Australia since they have resided. What is interesting is that if you live in Guernsey or the Isle of Man one can receive your old age pension from Australia. As Jersey directly has trade agreements with Australia, may I ask that the reciprocal agreement on old-age pensions with Australia is reopened and revisited to restore people’s pensions that they have accrued when they have worked overseas? What is interesting is that there is a particular Islander that had worked in New Zealand and he receives the pension that he has accrued when he was working there. Grant it, it is only about £1.50 but that does not matter, the principle is he is getting his pension. This issue may not just lie with the Minister for External Relations but in partnership with other Ministers within our Assembly. But I do ask if this issue is revisited on behalf of our Islanders.

1.1.23 Deputy E. Millar of St. John, St. Lawrence and Trinity:

I will be very quick, I just want to make one specific point, which I think Deputy Morel touched on and I apologise if it has been raised when I was out of the Assembly earlier on. We have heard earlier on from the Minister about Jersey’s positive international reputation, and I think that is correct that Jersey does have in very many informed quarters a positive reputation internationally. There are many times over the course of my career in Jersey I have written in the document that Jersey is a stable, sophisticated and well-regulated jurisdiction. However, during the election campaign, during our online hustings, as part of an answer to a question I have said: “Of course Jersey is not a tax haven.” No word was said at the time but the following day I received an email from a constituent who said to me: “You made this comment and I am very interested to know why because I am a Jerseyman born and bred and when I travel I become so fed up with people saying to me Jersey is a tax haven, I no longer tell people I am from Jersey, I tell them I am from the U.K. because I cannot bear the whole tax haven discussion, so why did you say that?” I tried to contact somebody in financial services who was on holiday, so I did a bit of Googling and told him that Jersey was not generally a tax haven because although we possibly fell into that bracket, the fact that we were an open jurisdiction because of our Tax Information Exchange Agreements, that we have information-sharing among regulators and clear gateways for regulators to share the information and due to our many positive reports from organisations like MONEYVAL, Jersey was generally whitelisted and was not considered to be an adverse jurisdiction from financial planning perspectives. I do think this is a perception we need to do more to counter. I have subsequently spoken to a contact in the Financial Services Unit and suggested that a briefing certainly with the Council of Ministers on that point may be very much of benefit. But I also think that that briefing on Jersey’s status or not as a tax haven is something that may be appreciated by all Members of the Assembly because we all really need to be clear that we can counter that argument whenever we encounter it and that we have grounds to do so.

1.1.24 Deputy M.B. Andrews of St. Helier North:

I would like to start off by speaking more about internationalism, I think that is really important as a concept. I think in terms of the current trade agreements that we have within the international system that is something that we really have to try and enhance upon, especially across this 4-year term. I have to thank the Minister for bringing this forward for debate among the States Assembly. But I think Deputy Mézec really highlighted a very componential feature and that was really to do with the legitimacy of governments within international system and also their records in terms of human rights abuses as well. Really what we are speaking about is liberalism within the international system, so recognising those governments who are operating and operating efficiently and who, again, are not acting contrary to international law as well. Also, I would like to pick up on globalisation; I think that is also something that is very important. This is more speaking about economic power and also the competition globally as well because we are becoming more hyper-globalised, especially since the 1980s. It means for domestic business it is going to become even more competitive and also when we are speaking about Islanders also in their trade, especially when we are speaking about intangible services, there is more of a global labour market. It is more competitive and also when we are speaking about, for instance, exchange rates as well it means there are going to be some complexities, especially for waged labour domestically. We have to look at, for instance, Asia. Again, there are plenty of developing countries that are doing very well and their economies are growing, but potentially this also means that the global labour market is going to become more competitive and potentially there is going to be resulting job losses for Islanders too. I thought that was something that I had to mention for this sitting. I just wanted to also touch upon capital inward investment. I think that is componential to try and help stimulate some business activity within the economy and also when we are looking at outward investment as well. So, this is where you have the opportunity to bring in income from abroad. This is a good opportunity for us to actually increase gross national income, strengthen our economy. That was something that potentially could have maybe featured in the document as well. I think that is probably all … no, there is one more bit as well. Just in terms of personal income taxation, again with the arrangements in terms of where people are based, obviously there is going to be more complexities. I know it was mentioned last term about the personal income tax loss but also, we have to recognise as well we could have Islanders working for overseas entities and there is, of course, a 2-way direction in relation to this. I think that is also just important to mention because I know it was probably mentioned in terms of a protectorate stance in the loss of personal income taxation, but actually foreign income can be brought into Jersey and it can still be taxed, so there is that element to also bear in mind as well. Thank you.

The Bailiff:

A second speech, Deputy Scott.

1.1.25 Deputy M.R. Scott:

Deputy Andrews has touched on the one matter that I thought I should mention, which was about the significance of Asia in terms of future economic policy. I also was quite inspired by the Minister for Children and Education when she was mentioning the children who had been involved in various exchanges. Well, it is not just children who can learn from being put in different cultural environments too. I do believe that there is some room for even people in our government perhaps to spend a bit more time in centres where technology is a bit more advanced, where there are different systems, particularly in those areas in Asia where there is economic growth. Also the possibility of thinking about the way in which this Island can perhaps benefit from the import of what I would call knowledge capital, particularly from those areas. In effect, in times of history there have been escape routes for people who have brought wealth and have helped to develop economies. I am thinking particularly of Hong Kong and Taiwan, because in fact these are prominent areas in terms of technological advances, but also have had difficulties with China.

[12:15]

I also in that respect do very much acknowledge what Deputy Mézec has said about certain regimes being illiberal. Just touching back on what Deputy Bailhache said about Article 31 of the States of Jersey Law and our own escape route that is there in terms of sometimes need to remind even the U.K. that we do have a choice. When it comes to building on this whole discussion of entrustment agreements, anything that we can do in terms of their relationship with the U.K. to speed up our own legislative process I believe would be much appreciated by States Members. It is a barrier to change our own self-government if we are tripped up by delays in the U.K. in terms of advancing our own legislation. Thank you, that is all I wish to say.

The Bailiff:

Thank you very much indeed, Deputy. No one else had indicated a desire to contribute therefore that brings this debate to an end and I call upon the Minister to sum up.

1.1.26 Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf:

Thank you very much. May I warmly thank all the … I have not counted how many, I think it was 15, 16, 17 Members that spoke, all of which we have made careful note of in terms of the remarks. I think that this debate, which is the first debate without a conclusion, I will come to the next steps as been requested by Deputy Bailhache and others about what happens with the external relations policy, but I think the tone of the debate, the quality of the contributions, the breadth of the contributions is, I think, a real important … held publicly for the first time on external relations, is I hope the Chief Minister’s desire of a unified Assembly working together, working transparently, working openly and debating the issues that matter to Islanders in all of their lives and respects. I heard “eyes and ears”, “stopping car crashes”, “deterrents”, “trade not aid”, “sport”, “France”, “arts”, “networks”, “migration”, “human rights”, “Island identity”, “environment”, “international relations”, “climate change”, “twinning”, “constitution”, “U.K.”, “independence”, “well-being”,. “O.E.C.D. index”, “identity”, “workers’ rights”, “women’s rights”, “L.G.B.T. rights”, “learning” and “Africa”. I do not have very long, and the clock is not ticking and I am rather worried about that. I would say I will try in the time before the luncheon adjournment just briefly, because I do have a little bit longer, simply to use 10 minutes or so …

The Bailiff:

If it assists you, in fact, as we finished at this time and I said we would be finished at 12.35, you have in effect 17 minutes.

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf:

Thank you, Sir. I wish the clock would go so I can watch that. I have noted the importance and the number of Members that have spoken on different themed topics. One of them, in fact I think the issue raised by more than any other Member, was in relation to France. I think that speaks massively to the importance of what the Chief Minister has, right from the start, directed me as a fluent French speaker - as somebody that has a Norman heritage, as somebody who understands French, who studied in France and got a French degree - me to undertake in this role and my first meeting was with the acting French ambassador in London. It is really important. Understanding what France thinks about us and what officials are saying is really important. In fact it matters more … and other people have said it does not matter what the Minister for External Relations thinks; well he does have a view but, as rightly said, the post is that of being the servant of this Assembly, of other Ministers and their objectives. But it is the important role of the Minister for External Relations to try and understand not what he thinks or other departments in Jersey think but what the other side thinks. I was interested to understand from the acting French Ambassador, who had before him a range of emails, of readouts, quite exactly what the French authorities that were reporting to him thought about us. Without being too direct, may I say that there is some room for improvement and understanding. I do not entirely recognise … and the remarks of Deputy Luce and others in relation to the ongoing issues in relation to fishing and other matters are not quite correct. What the Ministry for External Relations will do, what I will do, is I will seek to the best of my ability to try and clarify, not in an incendiary way but in a helpful way, what the position is. I think that as Deputy Morel and the other Members, Deputy Farnham, the Constable of St. Brelade and others that spoke about French relations, I think there is a big job of work, whether that be in English or perhaps better in French. French is in fact the language of diplomacy, sometimes you can be slightly more direct but more indirect in the way that one expresses matters in French. I think one needs to correct some genuine misunderstandings in relation to French issues. That is a job of work that happens now, has already started and will continue. I do not want to see another invasion. I will confess to Members, I was on the Normandy fishing vessel when it came into Jersey. That is partly because I wanted to understand what they thought, and it was very interesting. We need to understand what the others think. We need to correct it where necessary and we need to be very clearly assertive of saying what we think is wrong. There are red lines, there are important red lines in both the relationship with France and in other jurisdictions - I will come on to the U.K. in a minute - that we need to deal with. I do not want to speak at length, I do not have the time, but I get the signal, reinforced by the Chief Minister, reinforced by Ministers and now reinforced by Members at large here that they value and want an improvement. They want better dialogue. Deputy Howell, other Deputies who are of the boating fraternity, want better access links. I want to under-promise and overdeliver but there are things that we can do, working with the Minister of Home Affairs, who has seized upon these very issues in relation to immigration, there are some potential issues that we can deal with in the issue of identity cards no longer being allowed. Fifty-four per cent of French nationals have a passport, the rest do not, they have identity documents and there has been a real fall off, a cliff edge, in terms of arrivals of French day visitors. But I must say it is also the case for the other side. When the Chief Minister and I met Le Président de la Normandie we heard of the drop off in trade from Normandy, from those restaurants, from those shops and other small enterprises that they have lost business from our valuable visitors over to France. So what I want to say to Members in the conduct of our external relations policy is it is good to find win/wins. It is good when we find something that is of interest to us and of interest to the other counterparty. That is what will be a guiding principle by which we will discharge our very clear directions from this Assembly in relation to French affairs. I do not have a solution today but what I can do is undertake publicly to this Assembly to take this issue very importantly. Maybe I should declare an interest, I was a previous vice-president of Alliance Française, that is in fact an organisation of the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It is about the French language. We have a Deputy Greffier which cares very much about France. We have the Assemblée Parlementaire de la Francophonie, we have a relationship with both the Commonwealth and la Francophonie, the boss of la Francophonie is in fact the former Foreign Minister of Rwanda, Louise Mushikiwabo. She speaks French, she is from Rwanda and we can engage directly with her thanks to the good relationships that we have with Rwanda because of the brilliant work of the African cow that has been a lifechanging work and endeavour of the Minister for International Relations in relation to the lifechanging. I have seen it with my own eyes, the fact that our Jersey cow, a humble Jersey cow, can change lives beneficially for people in Rwanda and across Africa. It is diplomacy, it is the cultural diplomacy, it is the trade diplomacy, it is the aid diplomacy that we have spoken about. If I may just say about arts. This Assembly has given the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture, thanks to a proposition by Deputy Tadier, the budget for arts. I commend the work of ArtHouse Jersey. I commend the work of different nationalities of artists, and Deputy Feltham and others have spoken about the importance of the idea of how art can be an aspect of cultural diplomacy. Both here within Jersey by bringing artists here and by our artists seeking wider engagement elsewhere. A number of Members spoke of networks. I think Deputy Stephenson was the first when she spoke of her role at the Commonwealth Games and other aspects. She asked about the representation that Jersey has with other dependent territories. Jersey is able, I can say, to participate in a number of the Commonwealth fora and other organisations. We are a member of the Commonwealth Enterprise and Investment Council. A key body promoting inter-commonwealth trade. We are a member, of course, of the Commonwealth Games and how important sport is as another part of that diplomacy. Sport gives ambition, it gives opportunity, it gives hope. Was it not absolutely wonderful when you addressed the Commonwealth Games individuals that were the recipients of awards of that. Our young people being able to achieve a scale and a result well above the size of Jersey in terms of swimming endeavour, et cetera. That is not something for the Ministry for External Relations to do, that is a matter for the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture to do but, my goodness me, we are good at and we need to provide those opportunities for sportsmen and sportswomen, of which there are a growing number in different areas, whether that is boxing in Guernsey as I saw last night or elsewhere, yes, sport matters and it matters immensely. External Relations will assist in that regard. We will need to talk to the U.K. about how we can seek further Jersey representation. We do need to be bold in relation to … as the Attorney General indicated in an email and then subsequently, I am grateful for his remarks and for the remarks of the Constable of St. Mary, Deputy Morel and others in terms of entrustments and bilateral treaties. We are doing well, we have done well, almost as if this would have been a debate that had happened 20 years ago we would not have ever seen a Jersey Minister engaging in diplomatic engagement as Deputy Gorst has done, as I have done, as others have done in relation to signing agreements bilaterally - in other words, with a county to country - before. We had always been behind the U.K., now it has been the case that we are beside the U.K. and sometimes, dare I say it, that we are in front of the U.K. I say that as a way in which we have really grown. We have grown in our ambition, we have grown for economic reasons because of the nature of our trade and it is going to be really important in order that further seek more entrustments, more access to markets. We are an Island nation that trades. We now trade in services together with respecting our traditional industries and goods, as we have said. We need to have more memorandums of understanding, we need more bilateral investment treaties, we need more double taxation treaties in order to be able to trade. Why does that matter? Because it matters to jobs here in Jersey and we are going to do at External Relations as much as we can to support the Attorney General’s office, the Financial Services Department and what I hope is going to be a diversified exciting tech driven economy that is going to be led by Deputy Morel. There is a wide amount of engagement that I could cover in a number of different ways but it is important that I deal with the office of Brussels and how that Brussels office has been affected by Brexit. What I say to Deputy Bailhache, who was instrumental in forging that joint Brussels office, it is now not in a second-class place, as the membership of the European Union has changed, it is effectively in a first-class place. We are a third country. It is absolutely vital that we understand that we trade primarily with the U.K. but also France and the rest of Europe and the rest of the world. Within that Brussels community it is the personal contacts, it is the personal relationships, it is then those relationships put down on paper in terms of agreements, in fixing problems, maybe it is avoiding a car crash, that is quite important. The avoiding of car crashes is well made by the former Minister, Deputy Bailhache. Yes, we do not celebrate the fact that we do not have car crashes, perhaps that is not an ideal metaphor, but effectively our job is to avoid a car crash.

[12:30]

Sometimes we do not speak about that. Deputy Mézec, I am going to rise to the opportunity of speaking about the word “independence” because it was raised in the last report. It was in relation to a constitutional review which was chaired by the then Bailiff, Sir Philip Bailhache, the Attorney General, Sir William, and others and it did relate to the issue of whether Jersey should seek independence. It was a report that looked into those matters. So I think there is a settled view, clearly exhibited by the foot stamping in relation to being British Jersey, or I have been corrected by some Jersey Britain - British Jersey I will call it - I do not think there is any call among the people that have voted for us here to seek independence. Independence is an ultimate deterrent but I prefer to keep it right of sight. I would prefer to get win/win and I would prefer to be absolutely clear about our red lines with the United Kingdom, about what they can do and what they cannot do. Yes, there are issues sometimes that come and there is one very real issue that is coming at the moment in relation to a certain financial services issue, and we will be absolutely forthright, we will be absolutely determined, to ensure that there is not an attempt by the Westminster Parliament to try and legislate for this Parliament. Deputy Bailhache is absolutely correct; it would not be correct that a law passed in Westminster could be transmitted for His Majesty’s approval at the Privy Council and then enacted in Jersey. It would require a debate of this legislative Assembly. As we have seen by the work for the first time of the Privy Council, yes, it is a joint crown of England and Normandy but the devolved administrations has, in exchange for its loyalty to the Crown, accepted that we keep our autonomy. That autonomy has grown. It used to be just simply domestic trading with near partners, now it is much more global. So the work of External Relations and our trade ambitions will grow and so will the work be undertaken in this area in the next few years. We are growing. We are growing in stature. Deputy Scott said that we must not be also … she said that we should be humble. I think that is a very good word. We should be respectful, we should be never afraid to learn from excellence of other places. Learning from the example of other places, and I think that that is a very important issue of the way that this Assembly will conduct its affairs in the next 4 years. We will listen, we will be respectful, we will take account of other people’s views and not be afraid to listen to arguments and listen to ideas that are better than those of ourselves. When the facts change we change our mind. When the facts have changed, if I may turn to the important issue of climate change, articulately brought forward by a number of Members but the Assistant Minister with responsibility for this, Deputy Jeune, we do have the facts now in relation to climate change and what a wonderful opportunity it is to be one of the first jurisdictions in the world, if it is the will of this Assembly, if it is going to be adopted by the Common Strategic Policy, maybe, that we could be the first jurisdiction, the leading jurisdiction in terms of climate change and meeting that net carbon emissions. I look forward to work with the Minister for the Environment and the Assistant Minister for the Environment and the other Members that have spoken to the importance of climate change. Jersey will be represented at COP27. We will be there. We are having a bilateral meeting in terms of small Island states of excellence in terms of green finance. We are doing this and I am going to work with the Assistant Minister in order to make sure that we portray an importance above our size, if I may say, rather than using the more “punch above its weight” line. So the importance of international workers, of migrant workers, was raised by a number of Members, including Deputy Porée. This has been a real challenge. Brexit has meant that we have seen the necessary migrant workers that previously were able to be drawn from all areas of the European Union to simply being that of the U.K. and the C.T.A. (common travel area). The result has been that the Minister for Home Affairs and our excellent immigration team have been burdened with hundreds, it may be even thousands, of work permits that are required for people coming into Jersey. This has created a whole different approach. I do not want to be negative of the last 4 years but this thing should have been dealt with. But the fact that it has been raised, the fact that it has been raised by so many Members is important. The Minister and I are working but the good news, we have to say, is that once again we can do things. We have a work permit issue which is within the competence of this Island, between the competence of the Minster for Home Affairs, and I know that she is working on that. But it is extremely important, as a number of Members have said, that we treat incoming workers with respect. They are equals. If you are good enough to work in Jersey, you are good enough to have a house and you are good enough to be treated equally. They should not be discriminated against but unfortunately the way that the terming of the work permits of being skilled and unskilled, I do not know one worker that comes to Jersey that is not unskilled and we are going to have to change that.

The Bailiff:

Deputy, can I just direct you to the clock which we did turn on for your benefit.

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf:

Right. I am going to just, if I may, spend 2 minutes just summing up and say what the next steps are. I think I am going to provide a report in relation to the issues that Members have raised. I have not been able to respond to all the things but the comments are valuable, they are important and the next stages will be then to craft a new external relations policy with the overall guiding principles. Yes, it may remove the word “independence” but the points have been made well. We then move forward with the principles and we then move forward with the actual items of priorities that we are going to deal with. The clock has beaten me, I wish I would be able to say something else, I wish I would be able to say something else in French in summing up but I thank Members most warmly for their contributions. They have been valuable, they have been public, they will be recorded and they will be taken account to in the next external relations policy. I am hugely grateful for the Assembly’s time.

The Bailiff:

Thank you very much. That concludes the in-committee debate.

ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FUTURE MEETINGS

The Bailiff:

The last item before the Assembly is the Arrangement for Future Business.

2. Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat of St. Helier North (Vice-Chair, Privileges and Procedures Committee):

Yes, the first matter I wish to raise is the e-petition. As the Deputy Bailiff informed Members on Tuesday, the e-petition introducing an immediate reduction in road fuel duty has reached 5,000 signatures and we are therefore required to decide whether to hold an in-committee debate. It has reached the number 59 days ago but this is the first opportunity we have had to make that decision. The e-petition falls within the Ministry of Treasury and Resources, and I understand the Minister will himself speak on whether an in-committee debate will be beneficial. It is ultimately a matter for Members, but we need a clear proposition on which to make a decision. I therefore propose that an in-committee debate be held at the next meeting on 4th October, and it will be for the States Assembly to decide.

The Bailiff:

Could I just clarify an in-committee debate never gives rise to a decision? You cannot have a proposition with an in-committee debate. You can have a proposition about road duty but not about … if the decision is as to whether or not to have the in-committee debate, of course that is for the Assembly, but I took you to be saying that a decision had to be made about road duty at the end of the in-committee debate.

Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat:

No, Sir, my apologies.

The Bailiff:

My mistake. The Greffier or the Deputy Greffier understood you better than I did, and I apologise for that. Yes, Minister, did you want to talk about whether or not there should be an in-committee debate?

2.1 Deputy I.J. Gorst of St. Mary, St. Ouen and St. Peter:

Yes, I do think that in light of the number of signatures on the e-petition it would be appropriate and, indeed, helpful to have an in-committee debate. Members will be aware that a fuel market review was constructed which … the Minister for Economic Development, Tourism, Sport and Culture is not in his seat, from officers in his department. I am hopeful that that will be available by then. I suspect that will lead to further necessary work around the overall structure of the market, but I do think that Ministers would find it helpful to, as we have just done, hear Members views on this matter. So I would support that proposal.

The Bailiff:

Very well. I beg your pardon, I should have asked if your proposition is seconded. I assume it is seconded for debate. [Seconded] Does any other Member wish to speak on the question of whether there should be an in-committee debate on 4th October? Did you wish to respond in any way, Deputy Le Hegarat?

Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat:

No, thank you, that is sufficient, I think everybody is in agreement.

The Bailiff:

Those in favour, kindly show. Those against? Very well, there will be an in-committee debate on 4th October.

Deputy P.F.C. Ozouf:

May I just register, it is in my public register of interests, the mover of the petition is, in fact, a tenant of mine. I will seek guidance of exactly whether or not the issue means I have to declare and withdraw or whether or not it is a wider issue. But for the avoidance of doubt, I make the necessary declaration.

The Bailiff:

Thank you very much, Deputy. For the rest of future business, Deputy Le Hegarat.

2.2 Deputy M.R. Le Hegarat:

Arrangement for the remainder of the public business. There have been 2 changes to public business for future meetings since the Consolidated Order Paper was published. The Draft Income Support Amendment No. 22 (Jersey) Regulations 202, P.94/2022, has been lodged and listed for the meeting of 1st November 2022. While the Rental Control Tribunal: Nomination of Chairman and Members, P.86/2022 has been withdrawn. There is not a long list of propositions scheduled for the next meeting. It therefore seems likely that the Assembly will need not to sit on Thursday and Friday. However, Members need to be mindful that these are still in the continuation days and therefore if needed they will continue into those days. Therefore, I propose the arrangement for public business at future meetings.

The Bailiff:

Are Members agreed?

2.2.1 Deputy D. Warr of St. Helier South:

I want to just state I am withdrawing this proposition, the rent control, because recruitment is underway for a fifth member of the Rent Control Tribunal. Rather than debate the current proposition next week and then bring a subsequent proposition nominating the fifth member, I wish to avoid wasting Members’ valuable time and following debate yesterday I would like to donate my 2 hours to charity.

The Bailiff:

Well, do you give a monetary value to the … [Laughter] Very well, does any other Member have any observations in connection with the arrangement for future business? Members accept the arrangement for future business proposed by the deputy chair of P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee). That concludes public business and the Assembly stands adjourned until Tuesday, 4th October.

ADJOURNMENT

[12:42]