Will the Minister inform members of the number of young people under 21 registered as unemployed as at 1st September 2007 and each of the preceding five years?

Answer

I am afraid that I cannot give figures for people registering as unemployed with the Department who are under the age of 21 as at 1st September. The mechanism for recording unemployment statistics works on age bands and I can give figures for people under 24 for the past five years at the end of August each year.

2007 168

2006 170

2005 153

2004 163

2003 101.

My only comments on these figures are that they may not be typical of youth unemployment as they relate to the summer months and may be influenced by seasonal work and the relatively large number of students looking for work. Monthly averages for the years in question are

2007 N/A

2006 104

2005 105

2004 151

2003 94.

1.2 TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE NUMBERS OF YOUNG PEOPLE ON APPRENTICESHIP SCHEMES:

Question

Will the Minister inform members of the numbers of 16-19 year olds taken on to apprenticeship schemes, both States-supported and other, over the past five years and will he account for any changes over this period?

Answer

The Jersey Apprenticeship Scheme (JAS) originated in 1997 and was previously managed by the Training and Employment Partnership. In 2001 the scheme was adjusted to reflect changes in working and training practices and it has remained unchanged since then. The scheme offers advice and financial support for approved employers who are committed to providing both on and off the job training to apprentices. The JAS offers opportunities across all the traditional building trades, marine engineering, welding and hairdressing.

Over the past five years 434 apprentices have enrolled in the Jersey Apprenticeship Scheme of which 346 have been aged between 16-19 years. A breakdown of individual years 2002-06 is shown in the table below

Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2002
16-19s	19+	Total No
58	23	81
Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2003
16-19s	19+	Total No
49	10	59
Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2004
16-19s	19+	Total No
78	12	90
Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2005
16-19s	19+	Total No
81	20	101
Apprentices enrolled on JAS in 2006
16-19s	19+	Total No
80	23	103

In addition to the Jersey Apprenticeship Scheme Economic Development, in partnership with Health and Social Services, introduced a Cadet Nursing Scheme in 2006 and enrolled the first 16 trainee nurses in January 2007. The Scheme provides a two year apprenticeship for 16-19 year olds, who on successful completion are guaranteed employment with Health and Social Services and provided with further training and development opportunities.

Whilst we are aware that non-States funded, private apprenticeships do take place on the Island, we are unable to comment on the amount as there is no data collected and/or held for this.

1.3 TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING NON-LOCALLY QUALIFIED EMPLOYEES:

Question

1. Will the Minister inform members whether those non-locally qualified (NLQ) employees engaged by local firms on a secondment or short-term contract basis are included in the manpower figures used to measure and report on NLQ quotas under RUDL?

2. Will he further indicate for members what length of contract would qualify to be classified as short-term or secondment?

3. Will the Minister also inform members what data he has in number and percentage terms of such secondment/short-term contract employees, engaged in the sectors monitored by the manpower reports? Can he also produce comparative figures for five years ago?

4. Will the Minister further inform members how RUDL conditions are applied in the case of short-term contracts or sub-contract conditions in the construction industry?

Answer

All staff engaged by local employers are included in the manpower figures.

Contract licences are issued to construction businesses to engage staff in relation to specific, time limited contracts. These contracts are not defined as short term or otherwise, but, being limited to the specific contract in question, are limited by the very nature of the industry and development in the Island.

As reported in the Regulation of Undertakings Employment Licences Statistical Releases, in 2006 licences were issued to engage 479 staff on a contract basis, compared to 775 in 2005. These contracts will be of varying length, and as such, it is not possible to provide an accurate percentage analysis between contract and non contract staff at a point in time. However, to place this issue in context, it is worth noting that 5,060 people were employed in the construction industry as at 31st December, 2006, of whom, including staff engaged on a contract basis, 550, or 11% of the total, were non locally qualified.

When a local undertaking applies for a contract licence, it must provide evidence of having advertised locally, and the numbers of non locals it intends to employ on the contract. Once this information is received and analysed, a decision is made on whether to issue the licence.

1.4 TO THE MINISTER FOR TREASURY AND RESOURCES BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING CODES OF PRACTICE FOR AWARDING STATES CONTRACTS:

Question

Will the Minister indicate to members whether any codes are in place to allow Ministers when deciding between rival bids for States contracts to award such contracts on grounds other than financial/best value terms, such as a company’s record of employment of locally qualified workers or of numbers of apprenticeships? If not, will the Minister consider the introduction of such codes?

Answer

There is a general presumption when putting States contracts out to tender that the lowest bid will be accepted unless there are sound reasons for choosing one at a higher value. This might include delivery times, quality of supply or other relevant factors.

The current States Financial Codes of Direction do not directly address the issue of contractors’ employment of locally qualified staff or apprentices. However consideration is at present being given as to how the States evaluates tenders via two connected pieces of work. The first is the development of a Procurement Strategy in which the States position in relation to building sustainable communities is outlined. The second is the review of the various Financial Codes of Direction that relate to procurement. It is intended that an update to the Codes will give guidance on the award of contracts in accordance with the principles of the Most Economically Advantageous Tender in which a range of criteria including for example, cost, quality, servicing, technical capability are weighted according to the goods, services or works being procured. In the UK some local authorities are specifically including criteria for selection that supports the strategic initiative of building sustainable communities, by including such criteria as development of skilled labour and number of apprenticeships. Application of this type of criteria must be used appropriately as it can be considered discriminatory and may also lead to distortion of competition. These and other issues will be considered as part of the work in progress, on which consultation is due to be completed by the end of 2007 and revised policy documents published by the end of February 2008.

1.5 TO THE CHIEF MINISTER BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE ANNUAL BUSINESS PLAN 2008 - 2010 FIGURES:

Question

In the light of the summary statement below and the draft 2008 -2010 figures presented at the Annual Business Plan briefing for members of 23rd March 2007, does the Chief Minister now accept that the concerns I raised during the Business Plan debate over significant transfers of funding from the Rural and Tourism sectors to Enterprise and Business Development, Finance and Policy areas in the Economic Development budget and the misleading nature of such figures given the eventual budget outcome were fully justified?

SUMMARY OF ISSUES RAISED BY DEPARTMENTS

The attached summary has been prepared following the Council’s meeting of 8th March 2007. This summary represents the key issues raised by departments in their returns and also those issues highlighted by Ministers at their meeting of 8th March.

Economic Development

The service changes identified reflect:

The remaining resource allocation savings and gradual winding down of agricultural subsidies are planned
Reductions in Tourism marketing and PR spend
Significant business re-engineering refocusing which will enable funding and subsidies to new areas to promote economic growth including new monies
- High value industries
- Develop air and sea routes
- Further market and develop finance industry
Other pressures in Regulation office, grant funding of JCRA.

Answer

In March 2007 Officers were asked to identify the pressures facings their departments and how the departments would likely address those pressures if funding was not granted. Given that the 2008 Business Plan does not provide growth funding for EDD, it is entirely appropriate that the Department should reallocate its funding to its highest priorities.

I understand that the Department is currently conducting a zero base review of all its 2008 objectives but does not have any intentions to decrease direct support to the rural or tourism sectors. In line with the majority of Jersey’s economy both the rural and tourism sectors showed improved economic performance in 2006 with real terms growth of 2% and 3% respectively and there is a strong desire to continue to build on this turnaround in performance.

1.6 TO THE MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS BY DEPUTY G.P. SOUTHERN OF ST. HELIER REGARDING THE STAFFING OF THE JOINT FINANCIAL CRIMES UNIT:

Question

Will the Minister advise members, what steps, if any, have been taken to address the ‘less than adequate staffing’ of the Joint Financial Crimes Unit (JFCU) that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) reported in 2003, and will she inform members if the current level of staffing and experience within the JFCU now meets the requirements of the IMF?

Answer

In 2003 the IMF report identified that the JFCU was under resourced with 15 permanent personnel (2.5 being temporary) and that effort should be made to bring it up to strength.

Therefore the authorised establishment today is 17.5 posts although the actual establishment of the unit at today’s date is 18.5 permanent staff.

The JFCU contains the following:

1 Detective Inspector

2 Detective Sergeants

9 Detective Constables

1 Senior Customs and Immigration Officer

2 Customs and Immigration Officers

3.5 Civilian staff

____

18.5 Total

It is considered that we currently meet all our international obligations regarding co-operation and providing mutual assistance, whilst resources are kept under constant review.

Where workloads may be expected to increase with proposed enhancements to the regulatory regime, resources will be considered within the financial and manpower implication reports accompanying those proposals.

An IMF working party/steering group has been meeting regularly to review the 2003 IMF recommendations and consider proposals for the 2008 review. This steering group includes delegates from the SOJP, Law Officers’ Department and Jersey Financial Services Commission.

1.7 TO THE MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY G.C.L. BAUDAINS OF ST. CLEMENT REGARDING THE MANAGEMENT STRUCTURE AT HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES:

Question

Would the Minister inform members how many layers of management exist at Health and Social Services between the Chief Executive Officer and nurses and state whether he will be taking any steps to amend the present structure?

Answer

Nurses work in a variety of health and social care contexts with differing levels of clinical complexity and freedom to act in their various roles. Across the Department, the number of layers of management between a nurse and the Chief Executive varies from two to four. In Education Services within Health and Social Services for example, a nurse may report to a nurse manager who then reports to the Director of Nursing and then the Chief Executive (two layers). On a General and Acute ward, a nurse reports to a ward sister who in turn reports to a senior nurse. The senior nurse reports to the Directorate Manager who reports to the Chief Executive (three layers). In some social care and community settings, where a nurse may work with significant autonomy, there are four layers. Such levels of management are comparable with other Island and National Health authorities.

The driver behind levels of management in nursing is patient safety and clinical governance. The profession has gone through significant changes in recent years driving through significant improvements in the role of nurses and their impact upon patient care. As I am new to the post I intend to review all services within the Department.

1.8 TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BY THE DEPUTY OF ST. MARTIN REGARDING THE JONATHAN COOPER OPINION:

Question

1. (a) Does the Attorney General share Mr. Jonathan Cooper's view in his Opinion given to him by the former Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel on 14th May 2007, that there is a systemic violation of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights on the ground that the ‘dual role’ of the Magistrate does not give the impression that the Court is independent and impartial?

(b) Does the Attorney General share Mr. Cooper's view that the role of Centeniers in relation to fixing and listing trials in the Magistrate’s Court gives rise to a systemic violation of Article 6 on the basis that it compromises the independence and impartiality of the Court?

(c) Does the Attorney General share Mr. Cooper's view that Article 6 now requires there to be a professional prosecutorial system in place as part of the general obligation for fairness?

(d) Does the Attorney General share Mr. Cooper's view that there is a systemic violation of Article 14 in relation to Article 6, insofar as a distinction is drawn between more serious offences (dealt with by legal advisers) and less serious offences (dealt with by Centeniers)?

(e) Does the Attorney General share Mr. Cooper's view that there may be a systemic violation of Article 8 on the grounds those victims' rights may not be properly guaranteed?

2. When the Attorney General appeared before the Social Affairs Scrutiny Panel on 6th November 2006 he suggested that there would need to be two or three legal staff plus secretarial support and that salary costs for this staff would be round about £300,000 a year if staff in his department handled all cases in the Magistrate’s Court, should the Centeniers' role in Court cease. Would the Attorney General provide a detailed breakdown of this estimate?

3. Will the Attorney General state whether a role equivalent to designated case workers, as employed by the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Crown Prosecution Service on an average salary of between £27,000-£30,000, would in principle be acceptable in Jersey (this would require amendment to Legislation) and if so how the creation of such posts would affect the estimate of the salary costs mentioned in the preceding paragraph?

4. What capacity is there for the current legal advisers to take on additional work in the Magistrate's Court?

Answer

1. The opinion of Mr. Cooper usefully contains some references to material which is routine but necessary in the analysis of the compatibility of a trial process with the European Convention on Human Rights. Mr. Cooper also expresses however his conclusions on the application of that material to our criminal justice system. As with many human rights issues, it is possible for lawyers to advance different views – and the right place to adjudicate on those is in court.

Mr. Cooper’s opinion has been useful in stimulating a review in my Department on human rights grounds of what is a very small number of cases each year where the Magistrate has a dual rôle in determining guilt or innocence – I am advised this number is approximately 20 of which in excess of 50% are likely to be the disputed administrative offences of parking infractions.

It is also appropriate to reflect that where there is an allegation of bias, whether actual bias or an objective perception of bias, the determination of the matter by the court will be heavily influenced by the facts of the case before it.

It is also appropriate to recall that the Magistrate is a public authority under the Human Rights (Jersey) Law, 2000, and that he can always call upon a Legal Adviser to present a case if he considers that in that case he is unable to perform his judicial duties without infringing a person’s Convention rights.

Against that background, the answers to the questions are -

(a) No.

(b) No.

(d) No.

(e) No.

2. I regret I have been away from the Island on States business during the last week and have not had the time to deal with this question. However, the evidence which I gave to the Panel was concerned with the cost of lawyers and support staff dealing with all cases before the Magistrate’s Court. If one were dealing only with the twenty or so cases referred to in question 1 above, the additional cost would be considerably less than this.

3. What is acceptable in principle in Jersey as a prosecution process is primarily a matter for the States although they will undoubtedly wish to receive the views of the Crown through the Attorney General with his responsibility for the prosecution service.

There is undoubtedly more than one way in which the prosecution process could be structured. The job of dedicated case workers, as I understand it, could be viewed as very similar to that which could be performed by a cadre of trained Centeniers.

No costings have been prepared for what is at present a speculative outcome but this work can be done if the States, the Home Affairs Minister or the Education and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel so require.

4. All parts of the Law Officers’ Department work under pressure. It is no secret that I have frequently sought more resources. Until those are made available, the Law Officers will continue to do the best they can. However, if the question is intended to ask whether the Law Officers could do all the work of the Centeniers in the Magistrate’s Court without any additional appointments, the answer is that we could not do so without adversely affecting other legal services given to the States and to Ministers.

1.9 TO THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE BY DEPUTY S.S.A.P. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING THE OPERATION OF THE AMPHIBIOUS FERRY SERVICE AT WEST PARK:

Question

1. Would the Minister advise members how many days that Elizabeth Castle had to close during 2007 due to –

(a) the late arrival in Jersey of the amphibious vehicle known as the Castle Ferry,

(b) the number of recorded breakdowns to date of the Castle Ferry,

(c) the non-operational nature or other problems directly associated with the Castle Ferry that closed Elizabeth Castle for any other reason?

2. Would the Minister advise the Assembly of the admission figures to Elizabeth Castle for the comparable periods in 2006 and 2005 and would he further advise whether the estimated cost, in terms of loss of revenue to the Jersey Heritage Trust caused by these enforced closures, will be recovered from the new operator?

3. When are the two new amphibious machines referred to in the award of the new operating contract (2007) due to arrive in Jersey, when will the existing machine cease service and does he intend to review the operating contract of the new operator in light of the first season's experience?

4. Would the Minister advise -

(a) how many persons were admitted and attended the event held at Elizabeth Castle on 28th July 2007, how many people, if any, were stranded at the Castle after midnight, owing to a breakdown of the Castle Ferry and what time the Castle authorities finally evacuated and closed the Castle on the morning of Sunday 29th July?

(b) whether the States of Jersey Police asked for a meeting with the Jersey Heritage Trust owing to this incident to review operating procedures and contingencies?

Answer

1. During 2007 Elizabeth Castle had to close for 63 days due to the late arrival in Jersey of the Amphibious Vehicle known as the Castle Ferry.

There have been nine breakdowns or mechanical failures of the Castle Ferry to date, resulting in castle being closed for 30 hours.

Other problems which affected the ferry service leading to a closure of the Castle were due to the weather: five full days, 23 partial days. Total hours = 116 hours. By way of additional information I would like to add that in 2006, there were three full days, six partial days and an additional 11 hours (estimate 53 hours) of closure due to adverse weather conditions.

2. The admission figures to Elizabeth Castle for the comparable periods in 2006 and 2005 were as follows:

Admission figures start of season - end September

2005 42,240

2006 37,615

2007 21,726

Admission figures from 4 June (start of 2007 season at EC) - end September

2005 28,395

2006 27,952

2007 21,726

The estimated loss of income will be recovered by the Jersey Heritage Trust from the new operator.

3. The new vessels are due to arrive in Jersey this October. However as there is less than one month left of the season (closes 5th November) it is envisaged that the two new vessels will begin operating the service at the start of 2008 season.

The Jersey Heritage Trust will be reviewing the contract with the new operators.

4. With regard to the event held at Elizabeth Castle on 28th July 2007, 6.30pm – 2am. There were 1,500 guests, of which 640 were delivered on the Castle Ferry. No guests were stranded after midnight. The event finished at 2am. The castle was clear by 2.20am by security staff hired by the event organisers in accordance with the event plan. The guests either walked back across the beach or took coach or Castle Ferry as arranged in the plan. The causeway was lit.

The only unfortunate incident that occurred with the Castle Ferry was on the outbound journey to the castle when a mechanical fault slowed the vessel down which resulted in guests arriving at the Castle later than anticipated.

All transport arrangements and payments of the Castle Ferry outside of Jersey Heritage Trust opening hours are arranged directly between the operator and event organisers.

The States of Jersey Police have not requested a meeting with the Jersey Heritage Trust.

1.10 TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPUTY S.S.A.P. POWER OF ST. BRELADE REGARDING AN INCIDENT INVOLVING THE CHARITY SHIP LOGOS 11:

Question

(a) Would the Minister advise members whether, on 20th June 2007 when the Library and Educational Charity Ship Logos II was docking in Jersey, the starboard bow of the ship hit the Victoria Quay, causing damage to some land ties adjacent to the cement pump housing location and dragging a harbour crane along the Victoria Quay for some distance and then the ship allegedly reversed into the former harbour workboat, Duchesse of Normandie ?

(b) Would the Minister confirm whether any employees of Jersey Harbours were on the bridge of Logos II during this alleged incident, and if so, what role they were performing?

(c) Can the Minister confirm whether a Jersey qualified Port Pilot was on board the ship and whether the investigation into this alleged incident by the Marine and Coastguard Agency, through its Marine Accident Investigation Branch will be made public?

Answer

(a) An accident did occur as outlined in the question. This is a matter of public knowledge and was reported at the time in the media. I can confirm that some damage occurred to the land ties, crane and two small vessels.

(b) Two employees of Jersey Harbours were present in the ship at the time

(i) on the bridge was a Jersey qualified pilot who was carrying out his duties regarding the berthing of the ship;

(ii) the Harbour Master was also on board. As a past crew member of the vessel he was there in a personal capacity visiting friends. During his visit, he spent some time in the canteen below decks and also spent some time on the bridge deck. The MAIB have told me that he was not part of the bridge team and took no part in the decision making or handling of the ship.

(c) I can indeed confirm the presence of a Jersey qualified pilot, and this was in accordance with the requirements of the Pilotage (Jersey) Law 1988. The accident is under investigation by the Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB). The report into the accident will be made public. This is as stated in the Ministerial Decision of 5th July 2007.

I need to reiterate what we said in the Press Release of 5th July: “Once the investigation is completed the report will be publicly available and until such time it is regretted no further comment can be made.”

1.11 TO THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING POSSIBLE STUDIES ON STAFFING COSTS IN SPECIFIC STATES DEPARTMENTS:

Question

Is the Committee undertaking any studies presently or in the next financial year on staffing costs in specific States departments? If so, in which departments?

Answer

The Public Accounts Committee reviews the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General and will hold public hearings regarding those which it considers to be of public interest.

Reports to date have considered the costs of sickness of staff in the public sector but detailed reports on staffing costs in a particular department have not yet been considered. The main emphasis so far has been the financial framework of the States.

The Public Accounts Committee considers staffing costs to be an important part of the efficiency, economy and effectiveness of operation of a department and would look at these in the context of the services offered. Moreover, staff costs comprise around 50 per cent of the expenditure of the States and will, therefore, form an important focus for the work of the Committee.

The programme for the Comptroller and Auditor General in 2008 is still under discussion but the concerns of the Deputy will be taken in account when this is discussed with the Public Accounts Committee.

1.12 TO THE MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND TECHNICAL SERVICES BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING THE ACTION TAKEN IN RESPECT OF THE LEGAL ADVICE CONTAINED WITHIN THE COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY INTO TENDER PROCESS AND AWARD OF BUS SERVICES CONTRACT (R.C.58/2005):

Question

Has the Minister received the legal advice (Recommendation 6 of Committee of Inquiry into Tender Process and Award of Bus Services Contract, R.C.58/2005) and, if so, what action has been taken?

Answer

Legal advice was received in January 2007 and since that date discussions have been ongoing with Connex. It would be inappropriate at this stage to divulge the nature of these discussions as they have not yet been completed. Any agreement resulting from these discussions will be independently reviewed by the Comptroller and Auditor General as part of his scheduled audit of the current bus contract due to be undertaken within the next few months.

1.13 TO THE MINISTER FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BY DEPUTY R.G. LE HÉRISSIER OF ST. SAVIOUR REGARDING THE LEASE OF OFFICES IN BATH STREET:

Question

Would the Minister outline the annual cost of renting departmental offices in Bath Street, St. Helier, the length of the current lease and on what basis the length of the current lease was determined?

Answer

The annual cost of renting the departmental offices in Bath Street, with effect from 1st March 2006, is £44,000 payable quarterly in advance on the usual quarter days throughout the present lease.

The period of the current lease is nine consecutive years which commenced on 1st March 2003.

The basis of the current lease, being of nine years' duration, reflects standard practices of commercial lease durations. A break clause was included within the lease, which allowed the lessee to terminate the lease on 1st March 2006 by serving notice on or before 1st October 2005. This break clause has now been renegotiated and will now allow the lessee to terminate the lease on 28th February 2009 by serving six months' notice on or before 1st September 2008.

2. Oral Questions

2.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of St. Saviour of the Minister for Planning and Environment regarding a land swap between the States and a local company:

Under what criteria was the land swap agreed with Five Mile Limited of land to the south of the Watersplash (R.94/2007 refers) which includes the transfer to the company of a small coastal strip in a highly sensitive area?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

I will ask my Assistant Minister to deal with this answer please.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré of St. Lawrence (Assistant Minister for Treasury and Resources - rapporteur):

Negotiations for this transfer go back to 2004 and the strip of land in question is, broadly speaking, a rutted track about 8 feet wide and which is used for vehicle access and has over time I believe expanded into additional parking in the area to the south of the Watersplash. The transaction the Deputy refers to involves a swap for this piece of land and the public will, in return, receive two significantly larger pieces of land on the opposite side of the road which are adjacent to St. Ouen’s Pond. While I am not a member of planning, I would note that it is my understanding that both the areas in question are in the green zone as opposed to the zone without its own character, and given its present use I would submit that the public are receiving something that is potentially of greater environmental benefit given the proximity to St. Ouen’s Pond and hopefully something that we can improve upon in the future in an environmental sense.

2.1.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Given the highly sensitive nature of this piece of land would the rapporteur indicate what understandings were reached as to the future use of this particular piece of land?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

Before I go into that, could the Deputy clarify his definition of the sensitivity of the nature of the land, please?

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

In an area of the coast of Jersey which is regarded as highly sensitive and where if not in all aspects there is a presumption against development.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

That is why I defined the area as being in the green zone rather than without its own character, although we are treading out of my areas of expertise into planning matters. My understanding is that there is a proposal that involves the redevelopment of the Watersplash and which in my view should be quite a significant improvement than what already exists in the area. I do not know fully the details of the scheme and that will be a matter for the Planning Minister to resolve, however, strong support has been given by the Minister for Economic Development and the former Economic Development Committee, and it is felt that it is quite important for tourism. As I already said, I would reiterate in our opinion we are receiving something that is of greater environmental benefit by receiving the land closer to St. Ouen’s Pond given the nature of the existing land strip that is being transferred.

2.1.2 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the rapporteur not acknowledge that really his department, and potentially Planning, have got themselves into a major pickle because there is a real possibility that this land could be developed and that is by implication what they have agreed to?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré

I think that is potentially the whole point. I do not think we are in a pickle at all, Sir. It is a very, very thin strip. It is 8 feet wide. It is of little environmental benefit as far as I understand it. I understand that all of this type of scheme will be controlled by the Planning Minister and, as I said, from a public point of view, I think we have acquired something that is of potentially greater environmental benefit by acquiring something for the public on the other side of the road closer to St. Ouen’s Pond, which in the context of that immediate area, is probably the most sensitive.

2.1.3 Senator S. Syvret:

Is it not the case that the Deputy himself is interested in properties on the coastal strip of St. Ouen’s Bay and it could be argued that he may be conflicted in terms of establishing developmental precedent?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

We did consider that matter because obviously I do own a property that is half a mile to a mile down the road and in the end the conclusion is if you apply that criteria to anybody within the Island of having an interest within a property within a half a mile to a mile of another transaction I think we would all be in trouble. So, essentially no. So, we did consider it quite carefully and the general view is that I do not have a conflict, Sir.

Senator S. Syvret:

The point was, Sir, encouraging other owners in that area to be able to develop establishes a precedent which will benefit other owners in the region.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

As I said, Sir, I do not know if I want to get into the personal nature of matters. I am in a different zoning and ultimately those types of things come under the remit of the Planning Minister, Sir.

2.1.4 Deputy J.B. Fox of St. Helier:

I used to be Chairman of the Sub-Committee and it was always very, very sensitive that area. I wonder if the Assistant Minister could advise me, because of the sensitivity - and clearly some departments are in favour of this - was it taken to the Council of Ministers for overall consideration because I perceive that this is where, under Ministerial government, maybe such sensitivity should be discussed.

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

I do get slightly puzzled as to… we talk about the sensitivity of the area, Sir. As I said it is about an eight-foot wide sand and rutted track as far as I understand it. We are achieving something which is considered to be of better environmental value. In terms of anything involving development proposals and things like that, that is under the remit of the Planning Minister. What we are dealing with is a land transaction here, Sir, so it will be down to the Planning Minister with his planning and his environmental hat on to deal with whatever the nature of the scheme is.

2.1.5 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Just a final wrap-up: would the Assistant Minister - or the rapporteur - now concede that a major mistake was made in that a highly protected piece of land has been granted… and he has allowed a piece of land to be let out even though he trivialises and minimises its extent, and he is setting a very dangerous precedent?

Deputy J.A.N. Le Fondré:

No, Sir.

2.2 Deputy F.J. Hill of St. Martin of the Minister for Home Affairs regarding the nature of police investigations into certain operational practices within Jersey Customs:

Will the Minister advise Members of the nature of the police investigations into certain operational practices within Jersey Customs and explain why the investigations are not being carried out internally by the Customs Service?

Deputy A.D. Lewis of St. John (Assistant Minister for Home Affairs):

I can confirm that the following consultation with the Law Officers’ Department, the force is conducting an investigation with a view to submitting a report to the Attorney General. As the investigation is live no further information can be given at this time.

2.2.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:

I am just concerned about the operation of the Customs Service. Are the people suspended and are those people who are suspended, are their places being implemented by someone else? I think it is interesting that Customs are running the country.

The Deputy of St. John:

I can confirm there are no suspensions at this time, Sir.

2.2.2 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire of St. Helier:

Why is it that when I spoke to the Deputy on the Friday afternoon he was unable to tell me any of the detail in relation to something that was occurring and yet States Members learn about the detail in the Jersey Evening Post. Why is it that matters of this nature that are sensitive appear in the newspapers and other forms of media when States Members are unaware of the issues themselves?

The Deputy of St. John:

The detail the Deputy is referring to is in fact that there is no detail in that press report, if you look at it carefully. In fact, some of it was wild speculation so I can confirm that ordinarily we would inform Members of this House when appropriate before the media. That is certainly the process that we would take. Some of the speculation in the media was speculation and I cannot really comment on the case any further. You will see from that reporting that they made little comment as well because they did not have any information of any substance.

2.2.3 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Could I ask then, Sir, how the media came to know about the situation? Although there is no detail, how did the Jersey Evening Post know about the situation?

The Deputy of St. John:

Knowing that this situation was occurring, a press release was drawn-up should we have had an inquiry from the press - which we ended up having - and so the release was made and you will see from the statement it was very brief because we cannot give much information at this time. Quite how the press found out about it, I am afraid I do not know. They made a call to our department to ask some questions. We gave them a brief statement which was already prepared in anticipation of this possibly happening. How, effectively what the Deputy may refer to as a leak occurred, I do not know, Sir.

2.2.4 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

Last question, Sir: would it not be then if it is prudent to prepare for the media inquiring, a general statement prepared for the States Members at the same time. If you are going to prepare information for the media in case they get leaked the story, is it not also appropriate the States Members are given a brief at the same time?

The Deputy of St. John:

Ministers that needed to know about this were made well aware and it… should in the future it be necessary to make such a statement to Members, we will certainly consider it, but like I say, this is a very sensitive inquiry and there was, at that stage, no need for Members to know. But I do accept the Deputy’s concern that Members perhaps should have known about this before it broke in the press. I do accept that, but it was a sensitive inquiry and it was… information was released on a “need to know” basis and that field was quite narrow.

2.3 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the cost of “lay-over” facilities for buses on the Albert Pier:

Would the Minister identify the cost of renting “lay-over” facilities for buses on the Albert Pier and advise the cost of other facilities provided as part of this arrangement?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye of St. Helier (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

The annual rental cost for the bus drivers’ facilities on the Albert Pier is £44,000 in the first year, rising to £53,679 from year 2. The premises have been rented from Harbours and the rental has been independently validated. They require refurbishment and extension to provide a canteen and restroom at a cost of £184,296 including all fees. Furthermore, because this facility introduces a third operational site for Connex, as they will continue to operate out of the La Collette depot as well as Liberation Station and the Albert Pier premises, a minibus driver is required to ferry staff to and from the various sites as well as requirement for some supervision at the Albert Pier. This cost amounts to £27,500. The estimated increase in utility and servicing costs of the canteen over and above that currently provided in Nautilus House at the Weighbridge is £4,350 per annum.

2.3.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister accept… notwithstanding the excellence in many respects of the new Liberation Station, would he not accept, Sir, that it is totally unforgivable to have added these costs to his budget when no indication was given that these additional infrastructure costs were going to be incurred? Secondly, Sir, could he tell us - when he is for ever complaining about his inability to lift one extra weed on the Islands’ roads - where this money is coming from?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The fact of the matter is that in moving from the Weighbridge, the drivers for Connex were faced with losing canteen facilities. I will not go into extensive detail on the Deputy’s supplementary question because Deputy Power has a primary question on the subject of transfer from La Collette and the Buncefield issue which is a very significant feature in all this. The monies will obviously have to come out of the budgets associated with running a bus service within the Island and, no, I do not… I sincerely hope that this is not an unforgivable move; I hope the States are not just in a forgiving mood but will understand precisely the reasons why I have had to take these measures, frankly in order to make sure that the bus service continues to run properly and efficiently.

2.3.2 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I have received some complaints and concerns from residents in the district that live down there that are going to be affected by the increase to the traffic out of all of this. I would just like to ask the Deputy why in the past when we considered alternative locations for the buses - namely up St. John’s Road - there was consultation with the residents, why in this instance there was not any?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

My department has received one complaint from a resident who lives on the route between Liberation Station and the Albert Pier. In reality the Albert Pier area has been in the past used by Easylink as a bus lay-over position and to a large extent there is a very considerable amount of traffic running between the Elizabeth Terminal, the Albert Pier and roundabout by the underpass. Frankly speaking, I do not think that this move of Connex Buses will make any significant difference to the existing traffic situation. The reason for picking the Albert Pier site as opposed to some distant location is that in order for buses and drivers to have lay-over opportunities and rest breaks, it is absolutely critical that those can be carried out as near to the bus station as possible, otherwise it will interfere with timetabling arrangements which will, therefore, have a knock-on effect to make the entire operation less efficient than it currently is.

2.3.3 Deputy R.C. Duhamel of St. Saviour:

Does the Minister intend to raise bus fares in the not too distant future in order to cover these unforeseen costs?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The Minister has no intention of raising bus fares but may be forced to.

2.3.4 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

It is quite helpful the response that the Minister gave me in regards to my last question. I would just like to ask how many buses are we talking about parked there and how many bus movements are we talking about on a daily basis? If the Minister does know, can he tell us, and if he does not know, can he inform us at a later stage.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I can give an educated guess as to the first part of the Deputy’s question, Sir, and that is effectively the lay-over facilities will be used by the entire bus fleet at one time or another because all drivers are entitled to go to a break at their canteen. How many bus movements, Sir, that will involve over the day I simply do not know off the top of my head but I will undertake to give the Deputy a response to that.

2.3.5 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Minister not acknowledge - notwithstanding the excellence in many respects from a customer point of view of Liberation Station - that this was a major planning flaw and he has basically inherited a highly defective project in that regard.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

The Liberation Station project goes back to a States’ decision of 1996, which as a Minister acting in an executive role, I have now carried through. I am very happy to sit down with the Deputy at a time at his convenience and go through the very fascinating history of the development of Liberation Station. I have my own views on the matter but they are not pertinent at this juncture.

2.4 Deputy K.C. Lewis of St. Saviour of the Minister for Treasury and Resources regarding whether G.S.T. would be charged on Sky or other satellite television subscriptions:

Further to news that G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) will not be charged on the B.B.C. (British Broadcasting Corporation) television licence, can the Minister inform Members whether G.S.T. will be charged on Sky or other satellite television subscriptions?

Senator T.A. Le Sueur (The Minister for Treasury and Resources):

Firstly I should explain to Members why the B.B.C. licence fee is not subject to V.A.T. (Value Added Tax) in the U.K. and will not be subject to G.S.T. when the tax is introduced next May. The B.B.C.’s legal status is that of a public authority. Its broadcasting activity is carried out under terms of the Royal Charter and is financed by means of the licence fee. The broadcasting activity is, therefore, not considered to be business activity for consumption tax purposes because it is carried out as part of its duties as a public authority. This is not the case for other independent television companies, including Sky, which operate as normal commercial organisations and derive income through a range of business activities which are subject to tax. Subscribers in the U.K. are currently charged 17.5 per cent V.A.T. and subscribers in Jersey will be charged three per cent G.S.T. after May next year. This is because the tax is levied in the place of consumption rather than the place of supply.

2.5 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of St. Clement of the Minister for Economic Development regarding (j) category licences:

Would the Minister advise whether the number of locals seeking employment, especially school leavers and those completing further education courses, is factored-in to the equation for granting (j) category licence under the Regulation of Undertakings process? If so, what impact, if any, does it have on the amount of licences issued?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

The short answer is yes. The Housing Minister is responsible, of course, for the Housing Law granting (j) category to employees. I am responsible for the Regulation of Undertakings Law issuing licences for businesses, most on a three-year licence basis. However, we work together as a Migration Advisory Group with an Assistant Minister from the Chief Minister’s Department so that we are entirely joined-up. Ensuring local people have jobs and receive training is our top priority. Also opportunities for school leavers is also a key consideration and is frequently discussed and made as a condition of many licences. Unemployment is at its lowest level of some years and locally qualified employment is at its highest level for some years. A standing invitation exists to any Member - including Deputy Baudains - if he would like to come and meet with me at Ministerial time to discuss how we go about this.

2.5.1 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Could the Minister, therefore, reassure Members that the previous requirement that employers would make sure that they actively tried - should I say - to procure employees locally, and had a process in place to train up people to replace those that were leaving in the future, that that is not being diluted or allowed to be diluted with the current issuing of (j) category licence?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I should preface the answer by saying it is the legal responsibility of the Housing Minister to issue (j)s but we are entirely joined-up with Deputy Gorst and Senator Le Main and myself. In fact, I would say to the Deputy that in fact we have even fortified what we are doing in terms of encouraging businesses to train. I would go further and say yesterday I had a meeting with the Minister for Education dealing with the Skills Executive; dealing how we are going to be putting in place more conditions on licences to ensure training is put in place for not only (j) categories but also for locally qualified. All businesses have to train. They have to employ local people and I am acutely aware of the importance of job opportunities for school leavers.

2.5.2 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Can the Minister give us concrete examples of where he has reduced, deferred or withdrawn or not allowed to go forward applications for (j)s and instructed a company to employ local people?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Again, the Deputy will know that I do not issue the (j)s. It is the Housing Minister that does so, but we are entirely joined-up. I would never discuss an individual application on the floor of the Assembly; those are private and confidential. But again I reiterate my offer to both Deputy Le Hérissier and Deputy Baudains to come and see what we are doing. The figures stand for themselves I think. Members will see that the numbers of locally qualified people under the definition of Regulation of Undertakings - those that have been here for more than 5 years - are up. The growth of employment is for locally qualified, more than 5-year resident, population and we are doing it every day. Not only at the Ministerial level but the department. Every day businesses… if you have a (j); if you have a non-qualified; you have got to prove that you have exhausted the supply of locally qualified. Moreover that you trained your locally qualified people, raising productivity; job opportunities for all.

2.5.3 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Could the Minister confirm then that the number of (j) licences, as a policy issue if he is not able to deal with individuals, is now being reduced because there are many more locally qualified people available?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I do not think I have to tell the Deputy a third time, I am not legally responsible for (j)s. If he wishes to examine the Housing Minister on the (j) policies, then he can. But it is quite clear, the numbers of (j)s have increased but the overall employment has also increased. (j)s are very difficult to get but we do… if we are expanding into new areas of financial services, in education areas, we need to put new manpower, new brainpower, into the Island to assist the locally qualified market too. I think the figures stand for themselves and show that our policies are working.

2.5.4 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I believe it is time the Minister called States Members together for a briefing as to what is happening with the immigration policies. But can I ask, while he considers that, if he would extend his personal invitation to me to come to find out what is happening, I certainly do want to know. Can I ask specifically - because of some complaints that I have had - that he will look into whether or not there is any truth in the matter that the accession countries of the European Union who were previously here through a work permit situation, have not accumulated that 5-year residency while they were on their work permit scheme? Surely it would only be justifiable after the accession came into place. People are complaining that part-time work, in particular, is not there for school leavers during holiday time because people from the accession countries are taking these positions. It might be anecdotal; it might not be factual. Will the Minister agree to look into this issue and tell us how those jobs are safeguarded and how those 5-year residencies are established in truth?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

A lot of questions. A massively important issue. I will try and be brief. Of course the standing invitation exists. We have already had - and Deputy Gorst and Senator Le Main will confirm - briefings on population. I do not know whether the Deputy was able to attend at the time but, yes, of course we will. The Council of Ministers is discussing this week a population paper and there is going to be some public debate about the whole issue of population. As far as the accession countries are concerned, I would draw the attention of the Deputy to the Employment Report that we published last week, for the first time reconciling the Regulation of Undertakings numbers with the social security contributions. He can see the numbers of the new accession countries and other nationalities totally reconciled for the first time. As far as job opportunities are concerned for our young people and people in part-time work, I do not think there has ever been a situation where there are more job opportunities for part-time working and we are doing everything we can to ensure that we are bringing together people who want to work with employers. There is more to do but I think that I would say that it is not just would I agree to look into it; we are doing it and we are doing it, I hope, quite well.

2.5.5 Deputy J.A. Martin of St. Helier:

Would the Minister inform the House how far talks have extended with Social Security in job matching people - locally qualified people - who, under the income support system, will probably be able to do a lot of the jobs that are now done by residents of under 5 years? How many talks have taken place and how many jobs have been identified that could be done by the local workforce?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

What is happening is that we are bringing together the skills development and the job opportunity work that goes on with Education and Social Security and Economic Development. Before, they used to be three silos - I think it is fair to say - between the three different departments. The Skills Executive work that we are doing - which we discussed only yesterday - is going to bring that together. I agree with the Deputy that there is still more work to be done to bring together employers seeking staff with those staff that are seeking employment, and those discussions are going to be brought forward by dismantling the remaining silos that exist between Social Security, Education and ourselves and putting together… you are going to see some news in the next few weeks of how we intend to fortify our efforts.

2.5.6 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I was delighted with the Minister’s response. Delighted because the reconciliation of the Regulation of Undertakings numbers and the Social Security numbers is something I have been asking for for years. I am very delighted that he is looking into the issue. I would very dearly like to have a copy of the report that he referred to. If I do not have it, could the Minister please repeat what report that is that shows the reconciliation, please, and can I get a copy from him?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

If the Deputy’s email system is working, he had it. I think it was about 12.06 p.m. last Wednesday. It is called “The Labour Market Report”.

2.6 Deputy A. Breckon of St. Saviour of the Chief Minister regarding the current position wit the Jersey Milk Marketing Board and milk producers following the publication of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel’s review of the dairy industry:

Could the Chief Minister inform the Assembly of the current position and report any meaningful progress with the Jersey Milk Marketing Board, its commercial arm, the Jersey Dairy, and milk producers following the publication of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel review of the dairy industry (S.R.4/2007) presented on 25th January 2007?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

I am pleased to report that there has been significant progress since the dairy industry was reviewed by both Promar International and the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Sub-Panel. There has been an ongoing series of talks and negotiations between the Jersey Milk Marketing Board, the States and other parties who are working to help the dairy industry move forward. This has been facilitated by external mediation. The J.M.M.B. (Jersey Milk Marketing Board) have been working hard on many different areas to finalise their forward plan which involves elements such as the set-up of the new dairy; how the new co-operative is structured and run. There has been a cascade of progress on the elements needed to achieve a successful outcome. But to summarise some of the more recent points of progress, Classic Herd are now processing their own milk which has led to some internal competition and choice for the consumer. Jersey Dairy is now actively seeking to adjust milk intake to better match supply and demand for the new dairy and has engaged producers on this topic. It is also working on the contractual arrangements it will have with producers who supply it. The J.M.M.B. is also nearing completion on agreeing details of a lease for the new dairy at Trinity and drafts have been exchanged between the parties. Jersey Dairy is successfully achieving significantly higher prices for both butter and skim milk powder due to world price increases in dairy products, and this is favourably impacting on its financial performance. The dairy is actively pursuing the development of an export market for added value Jersey dairy products and is running trials in a major U.K. supermarket. While at the start of the year there seemed to be some potential for serious division in the dairy industry, it is clear that the parties are now actively talking to each other and I am confident that there is a consensus to work together to a common future which is looking very promising.

2.6.1 Deputy A. Breckon:

I wonder, bearing in mind that Members were asked to debate this matter with some urgency, if the Chief Minister could give some indication of any timeframe that the excellent things that he has outlined there would fit into, and if there is a target indeed for this?

Senator F.H. Walker:

It is difficult to give a precise timeframe at this moment because it is, largely speaking, in the hands of the board of the J.M.M.B. and other producers. I do know that there is a shared wish to come up with an agreed structure and to reach agreement on the new dairy at the earliest possible time, but these are important and complex issues and they have to be got right and I applaud the very detailed work and the leadership that the board of the J.M.M.B. are now putting into this project.

2.6.2 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

I wonder, Sir, if the Chief Minister could be more specific. Are there any major issues outstanding where agreement has not been reached, and if there are not, has a deadline been set for the actual move to the Howard Davis Dairy?

Senator F.H. Walker:

The one major issue yet to be resolved that I am aware of is that of the importation of semen where we have encountered legal problems, but I hope that those will be overcome. Other than that, I am not aware of any serious obstruction to progress, but at the same time - as I have said in response to Deputy Breckon - these things cannot be rushed and the board of the dairy are doing a thorough job in a proper timescale and I know they share my wish that it should all be completed and they should be able to reach agreement on the dairy as quickly as possible. But it is necessary for them to get… we are looking at the entire future structure of the dairy industry in Jersey here and it is absolutely essential that we and they get it right.

2.7 Deputy S. Power of St. Brelade of the Minister for Housing regarding the impact of changes to (j) category accommodation on the housing market:

Despite the Social Housing Property Plan Sub-Panel’s expression of concern with in Scrutiny Report 12 regarding the impact that changes to (j) category accommodation have had on the residential housing market, does the Minister still consider that such changes are having no effect on the prices being achieved?

Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

I have never said that the impact of (j) employees on the housing market is nil. What I have always said is that the impact of (j)s on house prices should be kept in strict context. They continue to account for just 8 per cent of all purchasers with 92 per cent of properties being bought by local people with qualifications. It is the economic growth that we are experiencing in which (j)s do have an important role that is driving house price increases. Our task is to manage this which is why I have been requesting that the Planning Minister makes sure that appropriate housing land supply is forthcoming.

2.7.1 Deputy S. Power:

The Minister may be aware of a report in the Jersey Evening Post 2 weeks ago quoting a former senior and experienced member of the Housing Department who is now a mortgage consultant. This former officer stated that changes to (j) category accommodation and licensing had accelerated the ability to purchase (j) category accommodation and as a result has had a dramatic effect on local house prices. Would the Minister go so far as to discount the remarks of this officer?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, Sir, I did read that in the Jersey Evening Post and I felt like writing a letter to the Jersey Evening Post to say that it was absolute nonsense and untrue. We have the figures in the Population Department which are quite clear and categorical. I invite any Member to come and see them at any time with me. The issue is that I challenge this gentleman to bring forward evidence that he has that we certainly have not got in the Population Department. There has been anecdotal evidence, if you like - or rumours going around - for a long time that (j)s are causing this issue that he quotes. It is untrue.

2.7.2 The Deputy of St. John:

Would the Minister agree that one of the biggest drivers that is putting up house prices in the Island currently is the lack of supply and also the fact that the lack of supply of sheltered housing which is not enabling the market to move and causing a bit of a log-jam? Would the Minister agree with that?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, Sir. There is a very, very large shortage of properties right across the board at this present time. The Planning Minister and I are working very closely to try and achieve this and the Planning Minister has all kinds of legal and procedural difficulties in being able to come up very, very quickly with land. Hopefully that will be resolved very soon but the Planning Minister and I are determined to put more homes in the market place right across the board.

2.7.3 Deputy A. Breckon:

I wonder if the Minister could tell the House if he is aware of the number of (j) cats. in the last 12 months’ employment statistics that Senator Ozouf has just referred to - because my understanding is it was 150 - and if he could tell the House how many of those that were granted a (j) category would be given permission to rent or buy or indeed would be able to buy?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

That is correct. In fact, three per cent of (j)s make up the total workforce in Jersey and there is approximately 150 new (j)s that have come in; a majority of them, Sir, are with Health and Social Services, Education and Home Affairs. The issue is that a (j), whether he or she are on a short or permanent contract, are entitled to occupy property in this Island - (j) category property - and in cases, even short (j)s are buying property for the duration of their three or five-year contract. Reasons are, I suppose, an increasing valuation on property but it is not uncommon for short-term (j) s to buy over a three or five-year period and selling them out of the company on completion of their (j) category.

2.8 The Deputy of St. Martin of the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture regarding the funding for children aged 3 and 4 years to access free education:

As the Minister was unable to secure funding via an amendment to the Annual Business Plan in order to extend the opportunities for children agedthree3 and four years to access free education, what steps, if any, will the Minister be taking to secure funding from other sources?

Senator M.E. Vibert (The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture):

We will continue to explore options for funding and nursery education for all and will be meeting with the Jersey Early Years Association shortly to further discuss the issue. However, funding of the magnitude required cannot be found from within existing resources without seriously impairing existing services. I will, of course, also be reflecting on comments made by States Members during the debate on nursery education and will look again at alternative options. The issue is being examined by the Education Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel and I will, of course, be taking their conclusions into serious consideration.

2.8.1 The Deputy of St. Martin:

Will the Minister consider looking at partnerships, probably with the finance industry? There is probably quite an interest there and one remembers most States Members were circulated with a number of emails from people within finance. So, would he not consider making contact with industry and see whether any financing inducements can come that way?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I am prepared to look at all options but my concern is to provide nursery education for all as well as nursery education for certain sections of the community.

2.8.2 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

What is the Minister’s view towards the means testing of nursery provision?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I will look again at the means testing but in the many papers we have presented to the States there were serious arguments based on very long research showing that it had some very detrimental effects on the very poorest in our society. So, I would need considerable convincing given that evidence, but as it was raised in the debate I will be reconsidering it.

2.8.3 Senator S. Syvret:

Does the Minister now accept that it is not particularly responsible to come to the Assembly with a proposition seeking a great deal of additional spending without indicating how the additional revenue should be raised, given that he was not indicating that it should be taken from another budget?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

No, Sir.

2.8.4 Connétable A.S. Crowcroft of St. Helier:

Is the Minister concerned that his inability to deliver equitable funding for nursery care means that the Council of Ministers will be in breach of its agreement in the Strategic Plan to deliver this by the end of the current year?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

We will be increasing the provision by a new nursery class, whether it is at the end of this year or beginning of next year and, yes, unfortunately it looks like we will not be able to meet all the aspirations as highly as we would wish and, of course, that was a decision of the States.

2.8.5 Deputy C.J. Scott Warren of St. Saviour:

Concerning the Minister’s reply regarding means testing, does the Minister accept that he used the word “detrimental” but there is nothing more detrimental than continuing this present totally unfair system to parents?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I have been trying to convince the States for some time now of how inequitable and unfair this system is, but like I said, I will look again; but I do not believe that means testing will get rid of all the inequity and that is part of the problem.

2.8.6 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

I am sure the Minister is aware there are a considerable amount of mothers who would dearly love to get back to work but are unable to do so because it is simply uneconomic to do so. Does the Minister agree that there will be savings in other areas and this will not be a complete write-off?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I totally agree there will be savings in other areas; not just with some mothers being able to get back to work though we do have a very high percentage of working mothers. But the real savings will be in the long term for a better society for the future if we provide nursery education for all.

2.8.7 Deputy S.C. Ferguson of St. Brelade:

Does the Minister not concede that if the nursery care is purely for the purposes of getting people back to work then that really is not the purpose for which it was intended?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I thought I just made that clear in the answer I just gave, Sir. The primary purpose of extending nursery education for all is for the whole benefit of society, to give every child in the Island a better start in life. One of its ancillary parts is that it will allow some mothers, if they so wish, more freedom to return to work possibly on a part-time basis. But the raison d’être for nursery education - and it has been agreed by the States for over 20 years - is for the benefit it gives to young children for their future lives.

2.8.8 The Deputy of St. Martin:

The Minister said he was opposed to means testing because it might affect the poorer people in society. Will the Minister explain why then he went for means testing for old aged pensioners and not for nursery education?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I have never been for means testing for old aged pensioners.

The Deputy of St. Martin:

I meant to say for T.V. licences, Sir. I am sorry.

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I came to this House first of all with a proposal that T.V. licences should be available to all over 75 year-olds. This House turned it down and suggested I came back with a system of means testing instead, and I did.

2.8.9 The Connétable of St. Helier:

The Minister, on a couple of occasions, has appeared to lay the blame for the failure of delivering equitable childcare and nursery provision on the States. Could the Minister remind us how long he has had this portfolio and whether he does not accept some responsibility himself for not having cracked this problem by the due date?

Senator M.E. Vibert:

I accept the responsibility that I have yet to convince the States that we should provide free nursery education for all by increasing the funding to do so, yes.

2.9 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains of the Minister for Health and Social Services regarding interim measures employed to ensure the Children’s Service performed adequately:

Would the Minister advise what interim measures, if any, he is employing to ensure the Children’s Service is performing adequately in advance of any recommendations that may arise as a result of the present inquiry?

Senator B.E. Shenton (The Minister for Health and Social Services):

My Assistant Minister will act as rapporteur for this question as he has special responsibility for Social Services.

Senator J.L. Perchard (Assistant Minister for Health and Social Services - rapporteur):

Clearly it would be wrong to anticipate and thereby potentially undermine the Andrew Williamson Inquiry which is now underway. It is expected that Mr. Williamson will report before the year-end, possibly - and if necessary - by means of an interim report. The House will be mindful that the previous Minister for Health and Social Services appointed Professor June Thoburn as Chairperson of the Jersey Child Protection Committee. Members may be aware that Professor Thoburn visited the Island last week to attend meetings with senior officers, senior social care professionals, politicians and others. I met Professor Thoburn on two occasions during her visit, once with the Minister for Health and Social Services and then with the Ministers for Home Affairs and Education, Sport and Culture. I remind Members that the three Ministries represent the corporate parent on the Children’s Executive, all of whom fully endorse the appointment of Professor Thoburn. The previous Health and Social Services Minister also formally invited the Howard League for Penal Reform to undertake an examination of child and young person custody provision in Jersey and pass judgment on the Grand Prix system which once operated at Greenfields. The details of their visit have yet to be finalised, however, I can assure Members that all of us at Health and Social Services will co-operate fully with the representatives from the Howard League. Also, the Minister has appointed me as his Assistant Minister with special responsibility for Social Services which includes the important element of the social care and welfare of our vulnerable children. Since my appointment, I have met senior officers and senior social care professionals on a number of occasions. Having received answers to very clear questions, I am satisfied that all vulnerable children requiring a service from the States of Jersey are being supported appropriately. Therefore, in the interim period from my time of being appointed until after the publication of the Williamson Inquiry, I assure Members that the service will be robustly managed with all staff being supported and encouraged through what is a difficult, sensitive and challenging time.

2.9.1 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I thank the Assistant Minister for his answers, Sir, but I was slightly concerned when he told us that all vulnerable children are being supported appropriately, Sir. Not according to what I read in the Evening Post and certainly not according to messages I have had from very concerned parents. Frankly, some of the decisions which the service is coming up with are outrageous, Sir. Does the Assistant Minister not agree that we need an immediate solution to rectify the situation before a tragedy occurs, Sir, and in order to assist Members, would he consider issuing us with a breakdown of the structure of the Children’s Service and how it interacts with other bodies such as the States of Jersey Police because I am becoming concerned about the situation. He did tell us that Mr. Williamson’s report might be with us by the year-end. Would he not agree that that may be so, but then it has to be analysed and actions drawn-up? Clearly we will not have any action much before Easter, Sir. Would the Assistant Minister not agree with that?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

The timescale on action will depend on the recommendations in the report. I do not accept, Sir, that there is a crisis with regards to child welfare. There are issues that will need to be dealt with. There is a new Ministerial team in place and we are working very closely with the professionals that we have engaged at the moment. It would be unreasonable to take any dramatic actions to the contrary before Mr. Williamson has reported, and in fact, the Howard League have reported, because I place a lot of value on their report as well.

2.9.2 Deputy J.J. Huet of St. Helier:

I have to say right away this happened last week. Is the Assistant Minister aware that if anybody, say myself or different places or people, would have any concerns about young children living with drug taking people - adults - when reported to the Child Care because of these concerns… I am sorry, I cannot make it very… the only advice that they will give is that you must report it to the police, and if the police are convinced that there is a case, the police then will report it to Child Care and they then might take it up. My worry is, Sir, that I have had an official complaint in with the police for the last three months about ‘Prison, me? No way’ expenses. Nothing has been done in 3 months and goodness knows what could happen to a child if you cannot present the evidence because I could present the evidence with one but not with the other.

The Bailiff:

You must come to the question, Deputy, please.

Deputy J.J. Huet:

Yes, well, I am just this does not agree, sir, with what he is saying here in the Chamber, that these children are covered. They are not covered and I would like his assurance that he will do something about it.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

On any specific case that the Deputy is concerned about, I would be delighted to meet with her and the officers at Social Services to discuss in detail and I will do that immediately. With regards to the decision as to whether a child should be taken from a parent, it is a huge decision and it is a decision that perplexes officers all the time. I know that because they have explained the complexities of those type of decisions to me. The fact is there is the facility and ability to remove a child from a parent. It is done as a last resort, of course, and it is a decision made by professionals and not politicians.

2.9.3 Deputy D.W. Mezbourian of St. Lawrence:

Will the Assistant Minister advise the House whether it is still the case that children who are in care at Heathfield Children’s Home are still absconding from the premises during the evening thereby tying-up valuable police resources in trying to locate them?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Regrettably I am unable to answer that specifically. I will undertake to answer that at a later date for the Deputy, Sir.

2.9.4 Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:

Does the Assistant Minister agree that any evidence should be given to Mr. Williamson rather than giving any credence in public to anecdotal and potentially unreliable evidence?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Yes, I do agree but I do also agree that there is serious concern over the provision of childcare and welfare on the Island and that it is the Deputy’s right to raise these issues in a public forum, and the service will be robust enough in time to be able to hold its head high and offer a service that we are proud of. It is my intention to be part of that regeneration.

Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:

Can I make it clear, I was not referring to one Member in this House’s comments. I mean generally.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I completely agree. The appropriate forum is Mr. Williamson or the Howard League.

2.9.5 Deputy J.B. Fox:

Appreciating the Assistant Minister is new to post, have you had a chance yet to visit the children’s homes like Heathfield and Greenfields, please? Thank you.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I am sorry, Sir, I missed the first part of that question.

The Bailiff:

Have you had the opportunity to visit the children’s homes?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I have met with the professionals that operate most of the children’s homes. I have not been on site. I felt that my time has been best spent thus far not looking around facilities but looking at policy.

2.9.6 Senator S. Syvret:

Further to the question raised by Deputy Huet, I can confirm that there are many examples of children left with drug taking parents…

The Bailiff:

Senator, you must ask questions; not give answers.

Senator S. Syvret:

I am going to ask a question. No, it is quite fascinating if you allow other people to ramble on at great length but you interject against me immediately. Yet more naked bias. Would the Assistant Minister agree that there are, in fact, many examples of children being left with junkie parents - sometimes very severe and heavy users - and there is one case in particular which he can confirm via the department where a 15 year-old daughter also became addicted through being left with these parents? Would he also agree that there is grotesque lack of consistency in cases? Would he agree to undertake a detailed qualifications audit of all of the people working in this field because many of the people who are working in the field - and this is not a criticism of them - are not adequately trained, have not been adequately trained and are not adequately qualified for the kind of work they are being asked to do?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

Taking the last point first which is the very essence of the question as far as I am concerned, I will remind the Senator that the fourth term of reference for Mr. Williamson is to: “Investigate and report upon the standards, experience and qualifications of staff at all levels within all relevant departments.” Again, I want to advise the House that the officers tell me it is a huge dilemma as to whether to remove children from parents and at what stage do they intervene. It is not because they do not want to; it is a professional decision they make. What we have here are politicians advising me that our professionals are not making the right decisions. I will go back to my team and Social Services and challenge them on this but at the end of the day, Sir, we engage professionals and we must support them. At this stage, I and my Minister are not prepared to do anything rash while we are waiting for Williamson and the Howard League to report.

2.9.7 Deputy J.J. Huet:

Is the Assistant Minister not aware that these professionals will not even listen? A child can die within three months.

Senator J.L. Perchard:

That is not the case. These professionals do listen and I will arrange a meeting in the next 24 hours with the Deputy - if she is available - at Social Services where we will air this matter fully with our officers.

The Bailiff:

I am afraid I cannot allow a debate to develop so I will ask one final supplementary from Deputy Baudains.

2.9.8 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

I am becoming slightly concerned the Assistant Minister keeps telling us that he is taking professional advice. Could he assure us, Sir, that that advice is not from the organisation currently under examination because if it is, surely it is hardly likely to be objective?

Senator J.L. Perchard:

I can assure the Deputy that the advice I am taking is from our professionals that we engage and I am proud to take that advice. As I will repeat, that the whole process is under investigation; I have been in the job 2 and a half weeks. I am spending every waking hour on this issue and I intend - and it will not, Sir, take me 8 years - to deliver a service that we are proud of.

2.10 Deputy K.C. Lewis of the Chief Minister regarding the impact of Guernsey’s sewage disposal system on Jersey:

Further to reports that Guernsey has no intention of modifying its sewage disposal system and will continue to pump raw sewage into the sea, will the Chief Minister agree to discuss this matter with his opposite number in Guernsey to ensure that this will not impact negatively on Jersey?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

This has been, I have to say, informally discussed with the Chief Minister of Guernsey on more than one occasion over the years but the discharges of untreated sewage from Guernsey - undesirable as they may be - do not affect the waters around Jersey due to the very strong tidal circulations that exist around our respective Islands. Nor is there any foreseeable international issue for Jersey arising from this.

2.10.1 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

I feel differently regarding the Bay of Grouville, however, although Jersey’s sewerage treatment is excellent, there is always room for improvement. If sufficient funds were made available to Transport and Technical Services, the outflow pipes could be extended further out to sea. This could eliminate at least 85 per cent of the bright green seaweed on our beaches and would benefit locals and tourists alike. Does the Chief Minister not agree?

Senator F.H. Walker:

I do not have the technical expertise to answer that question at all. What I think we should do though here is celebrate the investment that we in Jersey have made in sewage treatment as opposed to our near neighbours. We are very close to being world leaders for small communities here and we should not overlook that fact.

2.10.2 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

Absolutely. Transport and Technical Services should be congratulated on that part. It is not the bacterial line I was looking for. It is more the nitrates which feed the algae on the beach and there is room for improvement there. We are excellent but there is always room for improvement. Does the Minister not agree?

Senator F.H. Walker:

There is always room for improvement in anything, but as I said, I am not technically informed enough to answer such questions. I would suggest that the Deputy takes them up directly with the Transport and Technical Services Department.

2.11 Deputy S. Power of the Minister for Transport and Technical Services regarding the construction of facilities for Connex drivers on the Albert Pier:

Can the Minister inform the Assembly that following reports into the explosion at the Buncefield Oil Storage Depot at Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire on 11th December 2005, he has decided to move part of the Connex bus operation to the top of the Albert Pier and, if so, whether he has authorised the construction facilities there for Connex drivers? I know he has answered part of this already. Thank you, Sir.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye (The Minister for Transport and Technical Services):

Although the review is not yet complete, I can confirm that phase one of the hazards review of the La Collette Fuel Farm quantified the impact of a potential vapour cloud explosion following the issuing of a consultation paper by the U.K. Health and Safety Executive into possible stricter land use planning arrangements around fuel storage facilities in response to the Buncefield explosion. Until such a time that the U.K. Health and Safety Executive has concluded its consultation and determined which land use planning zones will apply around fuel farms, the hazard review group have advised the Planning Authority that any new development within the vicinity of the fuel farm which increases the population density should be precluded unless a detailed site-specific risk assessment has been undertaken. The Connex depot is immediately adjacent to the fuel farm at La Collette and construction of new canteen facilities for all the drivers on rest periods at La Collette would have increased the number of occupants and, therefore, the population density at La Collette contrary to current planning guidance. The proximity of the bus depot to the fuel farm meant it was thought highly unlikely that a detailed site-specific risk assessment would identify acceptable mitigation which could be applied to the bus depot that would have reduced the risk levels, that would have been acceptable under the United Kingdom Health and Safety Executive guidelines. For this reason an alternative site was urgently required to enable the move from the Weighbridge to Liberation Station. The only feasible site identified was the south end of the former passenger facilities on the Albert Pier which was vacant and required alterations and extension to allow its use as a drivers’ canteen and rest room. I was fully aware of the issues concerning the site of the canteen and the works were authorised by Transport and Technical Services officers under my delegated authority.

2.11.1 Deputy S. Power:

Is the Minister then in a position to confirm that his department and his senior officers are planning and have instigated to keep to a minimum personnel of various kinds in their employ at the La Collette site? Thank you, Sir.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

I need to emphasise a couple of aspects here. The department has not insisted on the movement of any Connex personnel from La Collette to the Albert Pier site. What has taken place is that with the creation of the new Liberation Station, facilities that were previously available to drivers on the Weighbridge - their canteen and rest room - have fallen by the wayside and effectively need to be replaced. The reason that they could not be sited down at the La Collette depot which might have been the more perhaps obvious approach, is as I have outlined; the current planning guidelines indicate that because of the potential risks identified under early risk assessment, the view is that no further personnel should be located down near the fuel farm than are currently there. Those are the prevailing guidelines that we are following.

2.11.2 The Connétable of St. Helier:

Would the Minister advise the Assembly how long he anticipates this report will take into the risk posed by the fuel farm, and would he further advise us what are the implications of the report he has had insofar as lots of members of the public are being encouraged by his department to deposit their green waste at the composting site?

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

Maybe the Connétable of St. Helier did not hear what I said now twice. The situation is that no new development should be entertained under current planning guidelines. Operations that are currently in existence are effectively deemed to be allowed to continue as they are. In terms of timescale, I can advise the House that we are now into the final phase of the hazards review. I think from what I have already seen of the review, the implications are fairly clear and that is that the industrial zone that exists around the current fuel farm depot is one where new development is likely to be limited and any acceptable development is likely to be any operations that have a very low level of personnel associated with them. I think at this stage, until I have seen the final report, that is about as far as I can report to the House.

2.12 Deputy G.P. Southern of St. Helier of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the benefit to Jersey of the introduction of unregulated investment products:

Would the Minister advise how the introduction of unregulated investment products such as those offered by hedge fund institutions will benefit Jersey if there are no requirements for Jersey domiciled administrators, directors or local audit sign-off? Would he also explain whether such investments will be subject to taxation and how the Jersey Financial Services Commission will ensure that these “unregulated” investments are not used for money laundering purposes?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

To avoid any misunderstanding I should start by explaining to Members that what the Deputy is referring to is the proposed creation of a new specialist fund vehicle called “unregulated funds”. This new product is targeted at sophisticated and institutional investors such as investment banks and conditions for its use will be very strictly prescribed including a minimum subscription amount of one million U.S. dollars per client per fund and a clear investor warning regarding its unregulated nature. The proposed creation of this product is a key issue as far as our competitiveness with other jurisdictions, including Luxemburg and Dublin. The proposed product would generate considerable additional benefit for the Island. Each fund structure would comprise a Jersey vehicle with consequent revenues generated by way of set-up fees, legal fees, administration fees, and finally, winding-up costs when the fund is closed. As to issues concerning taxation, Jersey funds and, in general, funds internationally are already tax-free so there would be no difference in this compared to existing structures. The Financial Services Commission will ensure that Jersey will maintain its high quality anti-money laundering rules by the application of all the existing laws to these funds. I, therefore, asked the Law Draftsman to prepare the legal requirements and will, of course, consider the proposal once the law drafting is ready.

2.12.1 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Would the Minister accept that in proposing unregulated funds in Jersey we are joining some sort of free-for-all or race to the bottom? It seems to me that one of the things that we are justly proud of is the fact that we are a clean community and that our regulation is in place to govern the use of funds and in going to unregulated investment we are joining a race to the bottom of low standards?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Not at all, Sir. There has been nine months of consultation that has been taking place between Jersey Finance, the funds industry and the Jersey Financial Services Commission about how best we can position the Island to develop Jersey as an internationally competitive well-regulated international fund centre. I am very pleased with the outcome of the discussions that have happened between the Commission, who this proposal has the full support of. I think it is very clear that we are going to be effectively branding this as an unregulated fund as regards the investment is concerned, but of course our gold standard, in terms of anti-money laundering provisions, to be examined by the I.M.F. (International Monetary Fund), and by the fortified rules that this Assembly is going to be considering on 9th November remains intact.

2.12.2 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Judging from the first answer he was suggesting, I believe, that administration would be Jersey domiciled, directors would be Jersey domiciled and local audit would also be occurring on the Island and thereby gaining benefit. My understanding of the proposals is that there will be no requirement for such administration to be Jersey-based and it would be Jersey in name only. Can he clarify?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

It is absolutely correct to say that the proposal is not that there should be a compulsory Jersey-based administrator. There has been a lot of discussion within the industry and the Commission and the representative bodies on this issue, but what is clear - the industry is clear and the advice that I have - is that this will provide in reality a lot of additional on-Island administration. The levels of service that we provide in Jersey is seen as certainly being comparable and if an administrator is to be used off-Island then they have to be comparable to the standards.

2.12.3 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Could I ask that the Minister give me a written answer showing how this non-local requirement would benefit the Island?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

The Deputy is the Chairman of the Economic Affairs Scrutiny Panel. He can ask me questions, he can ask me written questions and I will be happy, of course, to provide any answers to him.

2.13 Deputy G.P. Southern of the Minister for Economic Development regarding the June 2007 manpower statistics:

Do the June 2007 manpower statistics showing annual growth in jobs of 1,210 or 2.2 per cent - which amounts to 2,720 over the 3-year period 2004 to 2007 with average job growth of 1.7 per cent - show that the strategic target of sustainable economic growth rate of two per cent within job growth of less than one per cent, or 500 a year, contained in the Strategic Plan has failed or been abandoned, and if so, what measures does the Minister propose to achieve his strategic target of one per cent job growth?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf (The Minister for Economic Development):

The short answer is no. We are meeting our economic target in a way that I would suggest has not been achieved in a generation, keeping long-term job growth in the residentially qualified working population below target and anchoring inflation at or below target levels. The States’ Strategic Plan includes an annualised target for growth in the working population of one per cent. While growth to June 2007 exceeds this figure, the longer five-year average is at or slightly below the target level of 0.9 per cent. It is entirely predictable, however, that at certain points in the economic cycle growth in the working population will fluctuate around the long-term sustainable target of one per cent. The growth in working population has been outstripped by the real economic growth in Jersey in 2005 and 2006 indicating that it is delivering significantly improved productivity, a fundamental component of economic growth and, frankly, the Atlantis of all Economic Development Ministers around the world if they had these sort of results. Our policies are working and working well. The tough decisions that we have all taken are now bearing fruit.

2.13.1 Deputy G.P. Southern:

The Minister appears to feel that historical figures show that the limits have not been passed. However, if he will project forward into any 5-year period the growth that he has engendered will produce greater than one per cent job growth. Does that not amount to that particular target which was supposedly sustainable - one per cent or 500 jobs per year - being broken and, if so, what does this Minister propose to do about it?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

It is not me, with respect, Sir, that is the lever of economic success. It is the hard-working people of Jersey who are being given sufficient manpower resources to grow the economy. There is going to be a fundamental debate about population over the next few months but as far as targets are concerned, we are meeting them, and we are more than meeting them. We have delivered economic growth - real growth - of 7 per cent with an increasing working population this year of 2 per cent. It is within our overall labour market projections and I would repeat to the Deputy, I do not think that anybody would have believed a few years ago we would have achieved such a formidable set of results for the people of Jersey. Rising prosperity; job opportunities for all. Is he saying that is wrong?

2.13.2 Senator S. Syvret:

Taking the figure 2.2 per cent growth for one year, or a growth in numbers of 1,210, if you calculate the doubling period of this, it is 31.8 years, therefore, if you maintained that rate of growth in 31.8 years, your growth would have to go up by 4,840, so one doubling would be 2,420; two doublings 4,840; three doublings 9,680 and so on. Therefore, growth would be doubling in comparatively short time periods. But even this doubling of the job population would not mathematically keep pace with the ageing population. Will the Minister take some advice on the physics of exponential growth and the second law of thermodynamics?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

The Minister takes good advice and he is discussing the whole issue of population with the Council of Ministers to have this important debate about population and the worker/non-worker ratios for Jersey and that is why we are going to be having an important public debate on it. Can the growth that we have seen last year and this year continue? Well, no, it cannot. That is very clear. But what we do need to do is we need to position the Island … Deputy Southern seems to be remonstrating. But, of course, we have seen the Island take a big slice of a growing international financial services market. We have to position the Island to be at the right time at the right place to seize that growth. Will it continue? Would we have seen - would we have imagined - the credit crunch difficulties that we have seen in the last few weeks? Will that have an impact on Jersey? Yes, it probably will, so we probably will see a downturn, but what we have to do is we have to position the Island to be put in the right place at the right time to deliver economic growth, prosperity, accompanied by low inflation, and that is what we are doing.

2.13.3 Deputy J.A. Martin:

Thank you, Sir, but would the Minister not accept … I thought we already had had the debate on how many people we could employ at one per cent of the working population, and it seems that the Minister or the Council have already exceeded that, so again another debate in this House wasted. What I would like to ask the Minister, Sir, is earlier in an answer he said we can be assured of these figures because Regulation of Undertakings now reconcile their figures with Social Security. Can he tell me when Regulation of Undertakings, Social Security and I.T.I.S. (Income Tax Instalment Scheme) will all be reconciled, because on asking questions of I.T.I.S., we have thousands more employees than there are under Regulation of Undertakings or Social Security.

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I have to say we have failed to target the economic growth number accurately. We targeted 2 per cent; we have delivered 7.1 per cent. But we have done so - the Deputy, I must correct her - within the target of a one per cent average increase in the working population. Last year was much higher than that because the economy was performing well, financial markets were performing well. So I am sorry that we have achieved higher economic growth, but we have done so within labour market targets of one per cent that we promised, so she cannot say that we have not met the targets on that level. In relation to Social Security and Reg. of Uns., I would imagine that she would welcome the issue. I am not sure what she is referring to in relation to I.T.I.S.; I am happy to talk to her in the coffee room about that and see whether or not there is a number issue there, because I am not sure that I understand the questions.

2.13.4 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

At the risk of sound churlish, would the Minister not accept that this economic growth is not the result of his own personal efforts, but is the result of global economic trends?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I have just said that. It is not my efforts that have done it, but what we can say as an Assembly is that we have positioned the Island to take a significant upswing in financial markets. We had the Economic Development Minister - whatever his title is - in Guernsey saying that Guernsey is not seeing that additional growth; they are not open for opportunities for financial services. Guernsey is, I think, losing out as a result in comparison by sending the clear message out that they are not open for business. We have and we have seized that opportunity. But I would also say for the first time that other sectors of the economy are growing. Agriculture grew last year and for the first time tourism is up in terms of passenger numbers this year. 4.1 per cent more passenger arrivals translating through to some growth; we will analyse those figures in the next few months. It is not only financial services that are working. The domestic economy is working, tourism, and we have not even seen what we are going to be doing in intellectual property over the next few months. The future is looking quite good for Jersey.

2.13.5 Deputy G.P. Southern:

What figure is the Minister predicting for this year’s economic growth and job growth?

Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

I am not in the game of giving statistics in terms of what I think the number is. I think that any figure given 2 months ago would certainly not have been right in terms of the turbulence experienced in financial markets. We have yet to fully appreciate, I think, and understand exactly how that turbulence of the credit crunch will filter through into financial services. There is no complacency; I cannot give figures.

3. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Minister for Housing

The Bailiff:

That concludes oral questions. We come now to Questions to Ministers without Notice. The first question period is of the Minister for Housing and I invite questions.

3.1 Deputy A. Breckon:

In an answer to an earlier question today, the Minister mentioned the (j) categories of 3 and 5-year duration were being given the right to buy. I wonder, Sir, if he would like to comment on whether he considered whether this could be perhaps considered as speculation and how it would affect the policy that we are supposed to have about encouraging wider home ownership for the general population.

Senator T.J. Le Main (The Minister for Housing):

The reason why a (j) is now allowed to purchase shares in a company is because the States were doing it themselves and decided it was a very unfair advantage of the States being able to do it. The issue is that (j)s can only occupy the property and it is a mechanism allowing a (j) category to purchase the shares in a company to occupy that property for the duration only of that contract. It relieves the burden on some of the employers out there who had to take on that role. There will always be, in my opinion, someone who will think that there will be an advantage in purchasing for speculation, but generally the people that are buying are buying because they need somewhere to live and they are contributing greatly to the benefit of this Island.

Deputy A. Breckon:

May I follow that with a supplementary?

The Bailiff:

I am afraid we are inquorate, Deputy, so I must ask you to pause until some Members in the precincts are able to return to their seats. The Greffier tells me that my arithmetic is not very good, so we will invite you to continue.

3.1.1 Deputy A. Breckon:

Can I just ask the Minister what category for resale that property would fall into? It would still be (a) to (j); therefore there is a probable price increase in there. It is not restricted in any way by this permission being given to a (j) category.

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The category will remain always (a) to (j) except if it is worth over £250,000 after it has been occupied as an (a) to (h) property for a minimum of 2 years. But the property when sold out of the company has to revert back into the residential market out of the company.

Deputy A. Breckon:

Is that (a) to (h) or (a) to (j)?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I did say (a) to (j). They can only occupy a (j) category property and it reverts back; it is still a (j) category property.

3.2 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

The Minister has made much play, and I do admire his energy in this regard, about the need for sheltered housing or over 55s. Could he tell us, in response to the question he asked other people, what is his precise evidence for wanting this massive expansion of sheltered-type housing?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The evidence is quite clear that the Housing Department currently, as of today, have approximately 380 names of people over 60 who are in need of accommodation that currently they are not occupying; in fact, accommodation that has to be for their needs medically, physically and accessibility. They are currently in unsuitable accommodation, whether it be in the private sector or families or within our own accommodation. Of course, the Deputy must understand that over a period of time the ageing population is getting more serious by the month and by the year and by 2030 - as I have often said in this Assembly - double the amount of people will be in retirement than at this present time. It is a very, very serious problem which has to be addressed now.

3.3 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Does the Minister consider that it is appropriate under his zero-tolerance policy to threaten his tenants with sanctions which include the immediate cutting-off of heating or hot water - if such elements are included in rental payments - for rental arrears which may be as a little as one month; a move which would be illegal if threatened by any authority in the U.K? Does he believe that is appropriate?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I would never see anyone in rental arrears - unless there were exceptional circumstances, have their heating and electricity cut-off. My Assistant Minister and I have a zero-tolerance policy on deliberate non-payment of rent in those areas and we do send out these notes. But the issue is that all evictions or otherwise have to come to the Assistant Minister and me and every case is taken on its merits.

3.3.1 Deputy G.P. Southern:

Can the Minister justify sending through the post as recently as August to a tenant with a mere one-month’s rent deficit - and she is paid monthly so it was the normal to and fro - can he justify sending such a letter threatening to cut-off heating and electric in those circumstances?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I do not know at all about this case. If the Deputy would like to give me details in confidence I will check it out, but I am unaware of this case he mentions.

Deputy G.W.J. de Faye:

Could I just ask for a point of information I do not understand and I would like some clarification from Deputy Southern. Is Deputy Southern saying that the threat was made to cut off these services or were the services cut-off?

Deputy G.P. Southern:

The threat was made in a letter to a tenant who was a mere one month in arrears.

The Bailiff:

We must not have the banter across the floor of the Assembly.

3.4 Connétable G.F. Butcher of St. John:

Could the Minister advise the House as to what mechanism will be put in place to monitor incomes, tenancy, occupancy on properties with the fact that the abatement forms will no longer need to be filled-in now that it is going over to Social Security? How will this be monitored?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The Low Income Department will monitor all that, but the Housing Department have tightened-up on the tenancy agreements and the tenants now have to disclose any property, any assets, in regard to being able to continue or otherwise as a tenant. The new tenancy agreements have very much tightened-up on previous. I would like to just return to Deputy Southern. I must remind Members of this Assembly it is all very well for Deputy Southern to be quoting this particular case he knows about, but there are 2 sides to every story with many of these issues and I would not like to comment without knowing the full facts. There are always 2 sides to a story.

3.5 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

In the last week there has reportedly been a situation where a property that should have been occupied by somebody with qualifications was rented-out to people without qualifications. I personally applaud the stern rebuke the court gave to this individual, but what is the opinion of the Minister in regards to this type of occurrence and what is being done to check that people who should be occupying premises with qualifications are holding those qualifications?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

The department have a highly experienced officer in crime detection and otherwise who is now fully employed within the Population Office in regard to illegal occupancy or infringements of the Housing Laws and Regulations. We have had a difficulty in that there have been several cases over the last year forwarded to the Crown Officers and the Crown Officers are so very busy that they have been unable to take these on as matters of priority. I am glad to say, Sir, that there are several cases in the pipeline now that have been handed over to a private law firm. This case highlighted by the Deputy was handled by a private law firm and we intend to show the public that those who are defrauding or breaking the Housing Law and Regulations, particularly in a tight housing market, will be severely dealt with.

3.6 Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

One of the largest employers in the Island is proposing to remove the compulsory retirement age. Will the Minister revise his draconian estimates of sheltered housing and the like in the light of this trend which will probably spread to other areas?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I do not really understand the question.

Deputy S.C. Ferguson:

Given that one of the largest employers in the Island - after the States - is proposing to remove the compulsory retirement age, will the Minister start revising his somewhat - I said draconian - large estimates of sheltered housing and so on for the ageing population in view of the fact that there will be a trend for people over 65 not wanting to be packed into sheltered housing but going out to work?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

I encourage that employer; that is welcome news that employers are going to be employing people over retirement age and the polices of the Housing Law and Regulations and the Housing Department in regard to occupancy would take care of the changing market. I have no problem in trying to meet the needs of all these people whether they no longer work or otherwise. I would work with the Deputy and other Members in achieving those aims.

3.7 Deputy J. Gallichan of St. Mary:

This morning the Minister alluded to delays to builders being caused by the planning process. Does he accept that the vital importance that all development is subject to the full and due planning process and will he comment on an apparent open letter he has recently circulated to developers?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, I would like to very much say that I did circulate a letter to developers, because I have a role not only as Housing Minister in trying to find some land and getting land approved, but I have a duty to find out what the actual market is at the current time when I am having to grant (j) category licences. I have sent a letter out which indicates that I seek some information on various issues, predominantly to find out what the housing market is at the present time and what are the issues, because I know that currently in the Category B market there are approximately 8 or 10 people chasing every home in the market. In fact, you will have noticed that the agents have changed over from setting the price; they are now asking people to write in with guidelines of a price. It is like a bidding war at the moment. The invitation to electricians and scaffold companies and developers, and all that I have sent out the letter, is specifically to give me some information because I have a very, very difficult job in processing some of the applications that are coming forward by businesses who want to employ (j) category staff. I must make sure in my own mind that there is a supply in the marketplace to meet the needs of all Islanders.

The Deputy of St. Mary:

The first part of my question, Minister, was do you accept the importance that notwithstanding any delays, the full and due planning process must be followed in every case?

Senator T.J. Le Main:

Yes, I do, but you must remember that we are very short of homes for first-time buyers, shared equity and sheltered housing. Currently, while the States have sites like Lesquende that have been sitting there for a number of years, which has States’ approval and has been rezoned, there is still not a home being built upon it. There has to be some method of achieving and getting some of these sites delivered for the people of this Island. I can think of the nursery in St. Mary which has been to public consultation; it has the public support of the Parish; it has the support of the Connétable and the Deputy and we are still seeing those sites not being developed as quickly as I would like.

4. Questions to Ministers without Notice - The Chief Minister

The Bailiff:

That concludes the first question period without notice. We come to the second question period and I invite questions of the Chief Minister.

4.1 Deputy A. Breckon:

I wonder if the Chief Minister would like to comment on the idea of a national gallery and whether - if it is a realistic proposition - any funding has been identified to either build it or to run it?

Senator F.H. Walker (The Chief Minister):

I have seen no details whatsoever for plans for a national gallery. I have seen no information on funding, on operations or any details or data at all. I think it remains a very desirable objective; whether or not it is achievable, I cannot say today. I have no information.

4.2 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

In the light of the enhanced role for the 3 cost-cutting Deputies, would the Chief Minister announce what reports he has received to date from the 3 Deputies and on what topics those reports were?

Senator F.H. Walker:

I am sorry; I just did not get the question.

Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

In relation to the activities of the 3 Deputies who are being officially sanctioned to carry out more cost-cutting or value for money studies, would he announce to the House the reports received to date and on what topics?

Senator F.H. Walker:

We have received no reports to date. I announced in the Business Plan debate the structure that is being set up to enable expenditure to be critically and independently reviewed. I do not expect any information out of that process for some time yet.

4.2.1 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Sorry, Sir, a supplementary. The group has been in existence for several months. What reports have been received to the present?

Senator F.H. Walker:

None have been received at the present because the 3 Deputies concerned lack resources and - not least - time. That has now been addressed and amended and to the Deputies’ satisfaction they now have the resources they require and they, like the Council of Ministers, are looking forward to making a very positive contribution to the 2009 Business Plan.

4.3 Deputy J.A. Hilton of St. Helier:

In answer to a question I asked the Chief Minister in May this year about the lack of a States’ policy relating to the employment of individuals with learning disabilities, he informed the House that the Council of Ministers would be receiving a major presentation by the Director of Human Resources and this was one of the topics that the Director had been asked to address. Is the Chief Minister able to give me any further information regarding that question, please?

Senator F.H. Walker:

Not specifically. I think Deputy Gorst could provide more information than can I, but, of course, he is not being asked the question.

4.4 Deputy S. Power:

Would the Chief Minister agree with me that the organisation and management of the 2007 Standard Chartered Jersey Marathon was excellent and was as successful as the previous one and would he not agree that this is exactly the kind of event-led tourism that the Island should encourage and build on?

Senator F.H. Walker:

Absolutely, Sir. Every report I have had back suggests that the marathon was a triumph of organisation and a wonderful advertisement for Jersey and I very much hope - and indeed believe - that it is now firmly entrenched in the events calendar in Jersey on an annual basis. I would like to express my warm thanks and congratulations to all those hundreds if not thousands of people who were involved in one way or another in the quite splendid organisation.

4.5 The Connétable of St. Helier:

The Chief Minister is reported to have said at a recent speech at the Chamber of Commerce that the G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) petition was collected in many cases under false pretences, that some of the signatures were not valid. I just wanted to ask whether the Chief Minister was willing to apologise for those remarks which clearly cast a slur not only upon the members of the public who signed the petition, but on the Members of the Greffe who verified it before it was presented to the States?

Senator F.H. Walker:

The remarks were made based on reliable information received at the time, but however - and I have already made this clear to Deputy Breckon who I have little doubt has shared the information with the Connétable of St. Helier - I have made it very clear that now that the signatures have been checked by the Greffier, which at the time I made my statement I was unaware of, I am satisfied that the signatures are valid and I apologise to those who have signed the petition for suggesting otherwise.

4.6 Deputy K.C. Lewis:

Further to my question to the Minister earlier on regarding Guernsey sewerage, in the European perception Jersey and Guernsey are the Channel Islands and anything one Island does can negatively impact on the other. Does the Chief Minister not agree?

Senator F.H. Walker:

Guernsey do lots of things that negatively impact on Jersey. No, Sir, I do not agree that in this context there is any cause for concern as far as our international reputation is concerned whatsoever; rather the reverse. As I said in answer to an earlier question, I think it is generally well known how far advanced Jersey’s sewage treatment procedures and processes are, and Jersey is held up as a good example of a small community in this respect. I do not believe we need have any concern about a negative impact from Guernsey at all.

4.7 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I do not believe I stand alone in wishing to register my frustration about the prison situation that has been dragging its heels over the last few years. I understand that there was a successful meeting yesterday with the Minister for Home Affairs and the Chief Minister at the prison and it is going to come to the Council of Ministers in short order. Would the Chief Minister give us his opinion as to the situation there and whether or not he would be supportive of the Home Affairs Minister in seeking the funding necessary to sort the matter out once and for all? If the funding is not available, would the Chief Minister approach or be willing to approach the Treasury Minister to come to the House to seek for approval for those funds?

Senator F.H. Walker:

The situation I found when I attended the meeting together with the Home Affairs Minister yesterday was one of intense frustration. This has been caused by the fact that the money allocated - and this House did approve significant allocation of funds to the prison improvement plan not just for one year but on an ongoing basis - has been eaten-up by other operational requirements. At this moment I am not clear why that has happened or indeed how that has happened. Some time before the current problem erupted into the headlines, the Council of Ministers at the behest of the Home Affairs Minister had commissioned a full report into exactly what is happening with the funding. That report is due to come to the Council of Ministers on 7th November and we will be giving it our full consideration then. But I have no hesitation in saying that there is a problem at the prison and it is a problem that one way or another we have to resolve.

4.8 Deputy J.B. Fox:

The Council of Ministers each fortnight, or whenever it is they meet, always discuss the future propositions and then make subsequent comments. Today we have just heard of a land swap being conducted by Property Holdings in relation to a small patch of land at the Les Mielles area at the Five Mile Road, which is an extremely sensitive area at the best of times. Can I ask the Chief Minister if such land swaps or sales, et cetera, are discussed by the Council of Ministers prior to notifications being accepted or being brought to the notice of States Members in the usual way? In other words, is there a way that these decisions can be challenged before they are ratified; signed and sealed, in other words?

Senator F.H. Walker:

No, land swaps such as the plot in question are not the subject of Council of Ministers discussions before they are implemented. That is very much in the hands of the respective Minister.

4.9 Deputy C.J. Scott Warren:

Does the Chief Minister agree that nice-to-haves, such as a national gallery, should only be considered after we have the prison building and facilities up to scratch?

Senator F.H. Walker:

Yes, I do. Also, my understanding is that it is likely, should a national gallery project proceed, that it will not need to be funded by the States, but that is very preliminary, superficial information. But clearly we have to put our needs before our wants, yes.

4.10 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

If I might pick upon that last subject, there is a suggestion being bandied about that the Council of Ministers is basically requesting W.E.B. (Waterfront Enterprise Board) to put £1 million or £2 million towards this national gallery. In light of the comments made earlier on in this question session by the Chief Minister, would he therefore deny that? I presume that is not true.

Senator F.H. Walker:

I think the Deputy is adept at picking up every rumour or half rumour that he wants to that suits his cause. I can emphatically deny that that is the case.

4.11 Deputy J.A. Hilton:

In response to the non-answer to my question the Chief Minister gave me about 5 minutes ago relating to the States’ employment policy of people with learning difficulties, can he confirm to me that the Council of Ministers did indeed receive a presentation from the Director of Human Resources and, if so, when will he be in a position to report back to the States Assembly about those very important policy changes which will address the needs and rights of all Island residents with varying degrees of learning difficulties?

Senator F.H. Walker:

I can indeed confirm that the Council of Ministers did receive a presentation and now I have had time to think further and my memory has stirred a bit, we did agree that we would double the number of positions offered in the States to people with one handicap or another. I am quite happy to provide that information to the Deputy and to the House if Members so wish.

4.12 Deputy R.G. Le Hérissier:

Would the Chief Minister confirm that he is enthusiastic about Double Summer Time and, if so, when does he propose to introduce it?

Senator F.H. Walker:

I am personally very enthusiastic about Double Summer Time, but it is not my call. We are still working on a proposition or a request put to us by Senator Perchard. The work is still underway. It is taking, I would accept, quite some time, but I would equally accept it is not exactly top of our priority list at the moment, but it will be coming forward in due course. What the answer will be at this point I do not know. Personally, I am in favour, but there are very strong reasons, very strong problems, related to the proposition as well.

4.13 The Connétable of St. Helier:

Is the Chief Minister able to state categorically that no behind-the-scenes deal has been struck with a supplier of energy from waste or, in common parlance, incinerator technology; that no contract has been entered into and no commitments made?

Senator F.H. Walker:

That is a question better addressed to the Transport and Technical Services Minister, but I am certainly unaware, and I am sure I would be, of any such deal. Again, I suspect that this is more rumour than reality.

4.14 Deputy G.C.L. Baudains:

Like many other people, I think I was surprised by the Council of Ministers decision to reduce the overseas aid budget, or attempt to reduce the overseas aid budget recently. I know the Chief Minister is not going to name those Ministers who voted for and against, but could he give us some indication of the support that it did receive on the Council? We know that 2 Ministers were absent. Senator Vibert, I believe, has said that he opposed it. Of the 7 remaining Members, could the Chief Minister tell us if any abstained or opposed it; if they registered their dissent or whether in fact there was a casting vote?

Senator F.H. Walker:

There was no casting vote, nor do I recall there being any voices of dissent, but there was no vote taken. It was a proposition, as very frequently happens, that emerged without a vote, but I think the question is totally pointless because the States have taken their decision and the issue is firmly closed.

4.15 Deputy P.V.F. Le Claire:

I wonder if the Chief Minister might like to comment: I was struck recently, while walking up Hill Street, to notice that one of the employment agencies has been identified as the preferred employment agency of the States of Jersey, along with a couple of other banks, et cetera. Is it not anti-competitive and strangely peculiar that the States of Jersey would have a preferred placement agency so prominently advertising the fact that it is? Is it not fundamentally…

The Bailiff:

Deputy, if you want a reply to this question, you had better stop pretty quickly. We have 15 seconds, Minister.

Senator F.H. Walker:

I do not have a clue. It is not something that has ever been brought to my attention before, but I will find out.

The Bailiff:

That concludes the question period. There are no personal statements under J.

STATEMENTS ON A MATTER OF OFFICIAL RESPONSIBILITY

5. Statement by the Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee regarding the future composition and election of the States:

The Bailiff:

On to K: statements on a matter of official responsibility. The Chairman of the Privileges and Procedures Committee will make a statement on the Committee’s proposals on the future composition of the States.

5.1 Connétable D.F. Gray of St. Clement (Chairman, Privileges and Procedures Committee):

At its meeting last week, P.P.C. (Privileges and Procedures Committee) considered the appropriate way forward on the reform of the composition and election of the States following the decision of the States on 26th September 2007 that the term of Deputies should be extended to 4 years from the 2008 elections to mirror the extension of the term of office of Connétable agreed on 19th July 2007. As stated in its comment on Deputy Troy’s proposition, P.P.C. believes that an extension of the term of office of Connétables and Deputies without any consequential change to the position of Senator would lead to electoral chaos. As a result, the Committee does not believe that it should bring forward reform of Deputies and Connétables in isolation, as elections would be held at random intervals and the consequential change of membership in the Assembly would make it almost impossible to plan an effective programming of Executive and Scrutiny business for any reasonable period. I would draw Members’ attention to the table at the end of this statement, which shows the confusing situation which would arise - if no changes were made - to the position of Senator. Having noted the decision of the States on Connétables and Deputies, the Committee is therefore agreed that reform of the position of Senator must now be debated by the States so that a workable system of elections can be put in place as soon as possible. The Committee believes that the decision to move to a 4-year term for Connétables and Deputies has the inevitable consequence that Senators must also be integrated into a 4-year States cycle. P.P.C. believes that an 8-year term, with half of the Senators being elected every 4 years would be an unacceptable long term of office. P.P.C. has therefore concluded that the only realistic and workable option is for the term of office of Senators to be reduced as soon as possible to 4 years. Although there is clearly support in some quarters for all members of the States to be elected at one time, P.P.C. does not believe that it would ever be feasible or desirable to elect 12 Senators at one time. If that was done, there could be a very significant number of candidates, and electors might cast significantly less than 12 votes. This would mean that candidates elected in 11th or 12th place might have received a very small proportion of votes cast. P.P.C. therefore believe that the number of Senators should be reduced over time to 8, which is the maximum number that the Committee consider can reasonably be elected at one time. In order to achieve a transition to the proposed new structure, P.P.C. will, as a matter of urgency, be bringing forward legislation for debate to provide for the following: (1) an election for Connétables in the autumn of 2008 which any of the 12 Connétables will be able to participate in on a voluntary basis. Those that do will serve for 4 years until 2012 with any who choose not to participate having their subsequent term of office curtailed to end in 2012. In that year all 12 Connétables will definitely be elected on one single day. (2) An extension to the term of office for all Deputies to 4 years from 2008. (3) An election for only 4 Senators in 2008 with the successful candidates serving for 4 years until 2012. The legislation would further provide that 4 more Senators would be elected in 2011 at the expiry of the term of office of the 6 Senators elected in 2005. These 4 Senators would then serve for 5 years until 2016 when all 8 Senators would be elected on one single day for a 4-year term. P.P.C. will propose that the Senatorial and Connétable elections should be held on the same day with the Deputies election following shortly after, as happens at present. Under the above proposal, the membership of the Assembly will reduce to 51 from 2008 and to 49 from 2011. P.P.C. wishes to stress that this reduction is a consequence of the decision to move towards a manageable number of Senators in an election process. P.P.C. believes that steps need to be taken in due course to review the current distribution of Deputies across the Island, as it is possible that any such review could result in an increase in the number of Deputies. In the short term, P.P.C. will bring forward, in parallel, proposals on the maximum size of the Executive to ensure that the balance between the Executive and the non-Executive is not affected. P.P.C. is aware that some will criticise moves to align the terms of Senators with other Members and some may claim the position of Senator will become less attractive and devalued. As a result, P.P.C. nevertheless sees no realistic and workable alternative if the States are to give effect to their decision on the term of office of Connétables and Deputies. The Committee will bring forward legislation for debate as soon as possible so that changes can be in place for the 2008 election. It will of course be open to any Member who disagrees with P.P.C.’s suggested way forward to bring amendments to that legislation in the normal way.

5.1.1 Senator P.F.C. Ozouf:

Does the Chairman not accept that this is frighteningly tinkering with our constitutional position? Does he really believe that this Assembly can agree to effectively take a pickaxe to the Senatorial mandate, effectively allowing those people who stand for Senator next year unable to stand for Chief Minister, myself not included? Is he saying that you can reform Senators without reforming 29 Deputies and is he proposing anything in his statement about the reorganisation of the 29 Deputorial seats?